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The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority (2016)

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Re: The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority (2016)

#181

Post by humanrebar »

rectang wrote: post #171
humanrebar wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's actually the logical conclusion of "no tolerance for intolerance". Actual intolerance will re-emerge while using that as a slogan. I honestly don't see any other conclusion while divisive identity politics is the culture. Every election and debate is just subtext for making sure your people are in power to protect your people.

It's a paradox. The point is that tolerance cannot be limitless. That doesn't mean that intolerance won't prevail, it just means that those who strive for tolerance need not achieve perfection. There will forever be a balance to be struck, and it's natural to have disagreements about it.

Let me rephrase. Assuming the tolerance maximizers are completely successful, the next wave of ugly intolerance will be wrapped in a veneer of "no tolerance for intolerance".

I think the thing to strive for is a more perfect due process. I'm concerned people are instead looking for a more perfect way to label and shun transgressors. And they use hate and fear of intolerance as a key justification.

So how do we stop that? Or, rather, why haven't we had any luck so far?

Re: The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority (2016)

#182

Post by darkerside »

hi-im-mi-ih wrote: post #140
chillwaves wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While running for Congress, Indiana governor Mike Pence called for state funding for "institutions" working to enable people to "change their sexual behavior." https://www.snopes.com/mike-pence-supported-gay-conversion-t...

From the link: Mike Pence once supported the use of federal funding to treat people "seeking to change their sexual behavior." That seems like a great thing to fund. Looks like our current vice president seems interested in helping those who seek help.

Yeah, I see where you're coming from, but it seems this therapy is forced upon children (another commenter linked an article who experienced this at age 14). That seems wrong to me, and at the very, very least not something we should be funding at the federal level.

In fact, there could be some parallels here to federal funding for abortions. Many conservatives feel this procedure is morally wrong as strongly as others might feel about gay conversion therapy. I can see why they would be similarly upset about federal funding for clinics that perform them, although I don't necessarily agree with their final position.

Re: The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority (2016)

#183

Post by rectang »

humanrebar wrote: post #181
rectang wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a paradox. The point is that tolerance cannot be limitless. That doesn't mean that intolerance won't prevail, it just means that those who strive for tolerance need not achieve perfection. There will forever be a balance to be struck, and it's natural to have disagreements about it.

Let me rephrase. Assuming the tolerance maximizers are completely successful, the next wave of ugly intolerance will be wrapped in a veneer of "no tolerance for intolerance". I think the thing to strive for is a more perfect due process. I'm concerned people are instead looking for a more perfect way to label and shun transgressors. And they use hate and fear of intolerance as a key justification. So how do we stop t…

I think the only answer is one which leaves everyone unsatisfied: Some ideas will be treated as transgressions; not all transgressions will be punished.

Re: The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority (2016)

#184

Post by raydev »

danieltillett wrote: post #142
chillwaves wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While running for Congress, Indiana governor Mike Pence called for state funding for "institutions" working to enable people to "change their sexual behavior." https://www.snopes.com/mike-pence-supported-gay-conversion-t...

Not that I think "gay conversion" is effective (maybe at the margins), but as society we do seem to beleive that others sexual orientations can be changed via incarceration.

I think it's less "changing their sexual orientation" and more "keeping them away from those who can't defend themselves."

Re: The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority (2016)

#185

Post by chillwaves »

danieltillett wrote: post #142
chillwaves wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While running for Congress, Indiana governor Mike Pence called for state funding for "institutions" working to enable people to "change their sexual behavior." https://www.snopes.com/mike-pence-supported-gay-conversion-t...

Not that I think "gay conversion" is effective (maybe at the margins), but as society we do seem to beleive that others sexual orientations can be changed via incarceration.

Pretty sure the orientation is not the problem, it is the victimization of minors, which is an action -- not a thought or a feeling.

Re: The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority (2016)

#186

Post by chillwaves »

darkerside wrote: post #182
hi-im-mi-ih wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the link: Mike Pence once supported the use of federal funding to treat people "seeking to change their sexual behavior." That seems like a great thing to fund. Looks like our current vice president seems interested in helping those who seek help.

Yeah, I see where you're coming from, but it seems this therapy is forced upon children (another commenter linked an article who experienced this at age 14). That seems wrong to me, and at the very, very least not something we should be funding at the federal level. In fact, there could be some parallels here to federal funding for abortions. Many conservatives feel this procedure is morally wrong as strongly as othe…

Sounds like a false equivalence re: abortion.

There is science behind viability of a fetus for example that is used to determine guidelines and there is science behind behavioral therapy that disagrees with sexual conversion therapy.

On one side, you have people at least attempting science and rational thought, on the other side you literal magic thinking (religion) as the rationale, the two are not equal.

Re: The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority (2016)

#187

Post by icebraining »

aje403 wrote: post #166
andybak wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry?

It's silly, shouldn't be considered the correct viewpoint, but a great soundbite and a nice principle from a very intelligent man. Waters down life. Interolance gets vetted out with prosperity but it's not necessarily the requirement to achieving it as history has shown. I'm not sure how to respond to the bit claiming that societies are destroyed by intolerance - did Popper own any history books? Is China doomed to f…

please tolerate my viewpoints!

How could we? You presented none in your original post.

Interolance gets vetted out with prosperity but it's not necessarily the requirement to achieving it as history has shown (...) the bit claiming that societies are destroyed by intolerance

I don't see where Popper said anything about prosperity or destruction of society as a whole.

Re: The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority (2016)

#188

Post by icebraining »

andybak wrote: post #174
CrystalLangUser wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing that comes to mind is when muslims raised concerns about Switzerland's flag.[0] This is a different sort of case than described in the article, but pushback here is inevitable. [0]: https://www.aargauerzeitung.ch/schweiz/weg-mit-dem-kreuz-sec...

I'd like to know more about that. It seems to blundering terrible as a tactic that it almost makes me think it's a false flag operation.

They allege it was a joke: https://www.thelocal.ch/20110928/1324

Re: The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority (2016)

#189

Post by labster »

M_Bakhtiari wrote: post #127
labster wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair CFCs are toxic to humans, but only once they escape to the upper atmosphere to decrease the LD50 of sunlight. Of course in 1953, there was no way Erdos could have known that.

What's the LD50 of sunlight, and how exactly does Erdős enter into the equation?

Ugh I meant Godel. All of these mathematicians get me confused. Because of his incompleteness theorem, I'll have to leave your other question unanswered.

Re: The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority (2016)

#190

Post by grzm »

labster wrote: post #189
M_Bakhtiari wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the LD50 of sunlight, and how exactly does Erdős enter into the equation?

Ugh I meant Godel. All of these mathematicians get me confused. Because of his incompleteness theorem, I'll have to leave your other question unanswered.

Fun fact: Gödel's Erdős number is 3.

https://oakland.edu/enp/erdpaths/

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