Preparing for Malicious Uses of AI • Hacker News Board

Re: Preparing for Malicious Uses of AI

#181

Post by piracykills » Thu, Feb 22, 2018, 9:27 PM UTC

yorwba wrote: post #100

kozikow wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know that "why not blockchain" has become a cliche and I agree that majority of proposed use-cases seem like hammer desperately looking for the nail, but maybe this is an area where it could be indeed useful? - Create a special "evidence camera" that allows photos taken with this camera to be used as an evidence. - When you take the photo, the camera posts digital fingerprint of the photo on the blockchain. - To pr…

At best, that that setup lets you prove that a certain pattern of light was present on the camera sensor at a certain time. It says nothing about the way the pattern was created, whether it was pointed at a real scene, or whether someone projected a faked movie into the camera. By extension, any scheme to prove the truth of arbitrary measurements (audio, video, anything else) is vulnerable to manipulation of the meas…

Worse still, this sort of simple manipulation of the analog data to the sensor would allow the camera to lend a sort of credence to faked images.

Re: Preparing for Malicious Uses of AI

#182

Post by adamsea » Thu, Feb 22, 2018, 9:31 PM UTC

ynniv wrote: post #78

kypro wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm more concerned about Google using AI to mine every conversation I've ever had or my browsing history to classify me as a dissiden before I apply for a visa to travel to China or the United States, or as a deadbeat before I apply for a bank loan, or sick before I apply for insurance, or as unrehabilitatable before I apply for parole. I'm quite paranoid about this, yet whenever I speak to people about it either p…

The "best" part is how good an AI would be at privilege escalation. Go ahead, build out that security camera network, automate your cars, store your money using cryptography. I'm a geek and I love the way technology increases our collective prosperity, but most of our security relies on the attackers being approximately as smart as any other human. To a sufficiently capable intelligence, encrypted machine code is jus…

"Kuang Grade Mark Eleven did the Times ICE like a hot titanium wire through a cube of chilled petroleum jelly," smirked the Finn.

Re: Preparing for Malicious Uses of AI

#183

Post by kakarot » Thu, Feb 22, 2018, 9:37 PM UTC

DougN7 wrote: post #173

kakarot wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the crux of the issue with respect to nuclear WMDs: In order to prevent citizens and other countries from creating nuclear bombs, our government severely limits access to relevant tools and materials, and actively seeks to censor the knowledge of how to build modern nuclear devices from other parties. In order to prevent citizens and other countries from creating dangerous rogue AIs, our government ___________…

This is the problem. WMDs take a lot of infrastructure and can be tested/inspected. AIs can be built/modified by anyone in their basement. The genie can't be put back into the bottle. It's like trying to outlaw computer viruses and hoping that will work. I don't have a solution :(

Perhaps this is the Great Filter. Nuclear war, societal collapse, supervirus... all these can come from rogue / misused AI

Re: Preparing for Malicious Uses of AI

#184

Post by Avamander » Thu, Feb 22, 2018, 9:40 PM UTC

Eridrus wrote: post #163

Avamander wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing bad so far... For example there's a lot of homophobic people out in the world, right? Now let's assume this article, https://osf.io/zn79k/ , is correct in it's conclusions and boom, you've got machines that could potentially discriminate based on the CCTV footage of the building you entered for a job interview. This is just the start, scientists are heavily looking for those genes that make people smart, more…

So far every single reply to my comment was about how things could go bad, without anything currently bad. In the presence of all the tracking that people rail against, there are so few actual harms that everyone invents an issue. I think this is telling.

I think this is telling that you don't understand what "risk" is. Do you allow random people into your home? They most likely have not done anything bad, until they do.

Re: Preparing for Malicious Uses of AI

#185

Post by gambler » Thu, Feb 22, 2018, 9:46 PM UTC

kypro wrote: post #35

Mizza wrote: post #30

The disturbing thing about this paper to me - flashy though it may be - is what they left out rather than what they kept in. OpenAI appears to only be thinking of the crimes-against-individuals segment of malicious AI, rather then the crimes-against-humanity type of malicious AI that the surveillance advertising corporations who are supporting OpenAI are building. I am far, far less worried about an assassin's drones…

> I'm more concerned about Google using AI to mine every conversation I've ever had or my browsing history to classify me as a dissiden before I apply for a visa to travel to China or the United States, or as a deadbeat before I apply for a bank loan, or sick before I apply for insurance, or as unrehabilitatable before I apply for parole. I'm quite paranoid about this, yet whenever I speak to people about it either p…

>I'm quite paranoid about this, yet whenever I speak to people about it either people don't care, or already accept it's happening and inevitable.

Most people have no mental capacity to imagine the consequences of someone misusing their private information until either it happens to them or they see it happening in some specific scenario.

What bothers me is that everyone is being carefully conditioned to misplace the blame. Person A meticulously constructs a system designed to screw you over. They willfully neglect its security for years. Then person B comes along, pushes a button and triggers the system. These days 99% of the blame somehow goes towards person B. (Evil Hackers, or that one employee who forgot to install some update, or whatever.) Mass media is totally on-board with this kind of crap.

By the way, the same applies to AI "threat". Should we worry about AI overtaking all the world's smart toasters and simultaneously overloading the to cause mass fires? Or should we worry about the fact that those toasters somehow have processors, are Internet-enabled and run shit software?

* * *

Also, "the battle for privacy" is a bad mental model. There is no single battle you win or loose. It's a gradient. The more information you leak, the worse off you are in the long run.

Re: Preparing for Malicious Uses of AI

#186

Post by landryraccoon » Thu, Feb 22, 2018, 9:51 PM UTC

platz wrote: post #159

landryraccoon wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fair, but arguing something isn't possible is very different from arguing that when it happens you can solve it with a bomb. The conversation is about a hypothetical strong AI. You can say strong AI isn't possible, like you can say warp drives aren't possible, and it's still valid to discuss what it might be like if they were possible.

you're missing the point assuming we're talking about strong AI - when the paper is more addressing malevolent uses of weak AI.

Ok, that makes the post I'm replying to a non sequitur. Weak AIs in the short term are going to be hosted on AWS or Google cloud.

Is somebody going to take a JDAM to Google's data center in Atlanta or Amazon's data center in Seattle? Blow up Facebook in Palo Alto? Won't the US Air Force have a problem with that?

Re: Preparing for Malicious Uses of AI

#187

Post by nradov » Thu, Feb 22, 2018, 9:53 PM UTC

bloak wrote: post #175

nradov wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the Roman empire they didn't even bother making a myth that their slaves were sub-human. It was simply a matter of might makes right: we conquered your nation so now we own you.

I think perhaps you're confusing Roman history with some other period of human history, perhaps on a different continent. In the Roman empire there were slaves who taught philosophy, slaves who managed large estates, etcetera, and people could both sell themselves into slavery and be freed from slavery. In fact, selling oneself into slavery was a popular route to becoming a Roman citizen. If you don't want to read a…

I have read some history books. What part do you think I'm confused about? There were slaves in the Roman empire. They weren't considered sub-human and some held positions of responsibility, but they were property. Many slaves came from military conquests.

Re: Preparing for Malicious Uses of AI

#188

Post by tyrex2017 » Thu, Feb 22, 2018, 9:59 PM UTC

DougN7 wrote: post #177

tyrex2017 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i dont share your concerns at all. my daily feelings and activities wouldnt change, whether facebook and google know about them or not. Contrast that to being killed by a drone. privacy concerns is rather an interesting intellectual problem, and not a real one. if it was a real problem, people would change their use of those tools but they dont. you can argue that loss of privacy allows corporations to manipulate us,…

I'm sorry, but you're naive. The day might come when anyone with an 'X' in their online username is considered a threat. Ridiculous? Sure. But how about the things you've purchased? Schools/churches you've attended? Meetings you've gone to? Friends you have? The problem is when the definition of a threat changes, you can't go back and change your past, but are stuck. Being a Jew in Germany in 1910 wasn't an issue. Th…

you are naive and live in a fantasy world if you are afraid of this.

regarding the jew example, the problem is not about having stated in public what you are but with societies which discriminate.

you might have a point saying “my life should not be transparent, as to make it more difficult for a potential discriminatory society to attack me”.

but it makes no real sense to worry about it because it is so super minor in comparison to the deep problems this society will have. i know you disagree :)

Re: Preparing for Malicious Uses of AI

#189

Post by nradov » Thu, Feb 22, 2018, 10:01 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #137

nradov wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A JDAM through it's power supply would be an effective defense against a malicious strong AI.

> A JDAM through it's power supply would be an effective defense against a malicious strong AI. For a counterpoint (and not even a particularly malicious strong AI), see The Adolescence of P1 .

You're confusing SciFi with reality. It's exactly like worrying about an alien invasion. Silly and pointless.

Re: Preparing for Malicious Uses of AI

#190

Post by platz » Thu, Feb 22, 2018, 10:03 PM UTC

landryraccoon wrote: post #186

platz wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you're missing the point assuming we're talking about strong AI - when the paper is more addressing malevolent uses of weak AI.

Ok, that makes the post I'm replying to a non sequitur. Weak AIs in the short term are going to be hosted on AWS or Google cloud. Is somebody going to take a JDAM to Google's data center in Atlanta or Amazon's data center in Seattle? Blow up Facebook in Palo Alto? Won't the US Air Force have a problem with that?

I'm loving this JDAM thing, tbh. I will use it going forward.