Is developer compensation becoming bimodal? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#181

Post by d0lph » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 3:15 PM UTC

humanrebar wrote: post #165

aphextron wrote: post #134

>Another possibility is that U.S. immigration laws act as a protectionist barrier to prop up programmer compensation. It seems impossible for this to last (why shouldn’t there by really valuable non-U.S. companies), but it does appear to be somewhat true for now. I feel like this is the real issue here. The reason that the US has great companies is simply from the availability of large amounts of capital. And if the…

> In that sense it feels perversly exploitative and priveleged to make so much more money than practically anyone else on earth due to nothing but the physical location I was born. Is it perverse to go swimming because you were born near a beach? Is it perverse to visit the Louvre if you are Parisian? Is it perverse to go to a good university because the universities in Elbonia aren't good? You're not entirely wrong,…

This is why people don't like the concept of privilege, it seems almost built to shame people for having more due to circumstances.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#182

Post by Supernaut » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 3:22 PM UTC

xevb3k wrote: post #167

Supernaut wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It takes a child several years in full-time education to learn how to fluently read and write. Basic mathematics takes even longer. Similarly, a typical person will become a skilled and highly productive software engineer only through spending several years working full-time at the profession, ideally with the assistance of one or more mentors. Having only a basic grasp of the concepts behind programming does not ena…

I don’t see the equivalence. Yes, the skill you listed take some time to acquire. But few master them to a professional level, yet still use them regularly in their jobs. I think programming is on the same trajectory. We might not even recognize many of the tools as “programming” (they might look more like spreadsheets). But I think general up take of programming skill will increase.

> Yes, the skill you listed take some time to acquire. But few master them to a professional level

So you're contending that few people can fluently read or write their own native language?

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#183

Post by galieos_ghost » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 3:22 PM UTC

aphextron wrote: post #134

>Another possibility is that U.S. immigration laws act as a protectionist barrier to prop up programmer compensation. It seems impossible for this to last (why shouldn’t there by really valuable non-U.S. companies), but it does appear to be somewhat true for now. I feel like this is the real issue here. The reason that the US has great companies is simply from the availability of large amounts of capital. And if the…

Someone in my family has fought for the US in every war since the civil war. They have fought, bled, and died for this country, paid taxes, and helped build it from a weak country to the most powerful civilization in human history. They did it because they wanted their children and grandchildren to have a better life. Why should I feel guilty about this?

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#184

Post by Helmet » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 3:23 PM UTC

fahadkhan wrote: post #51

billysielu wrote: post #39

Developer salaries in the UK are very modest. Companies don't even know how to identify good developers, so they have no hope of competing over them.

According to www.itjobswatch.co.uk a senior Java developer earns £70k. But can command day rate of £575. That works out at about double. Suggestion it is bimodal.

Yeah, but given current exchange rates £70k is ~$100k. ~100k is nothing to sneeze at...

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#185

Post by heedlessly2 » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 3:24 PM UTC

namelost wrote: post #158

foamflower wrote: post #139

One (semi-pedantic) quibble with the article: there absolutely are barriers to entry for programming. Programming is hard! These barriers may not be artificial, but they are real. To use a non-software example, there are barriers to entry to chip manufacturers and power companies even under anarchy. Fabs are tremendously hard to build. Power plants are extremely hard to build. Building up knowledge and skills about c…

If you want to know just how hard programming is, try teaching it to someone. Programmers have to remember a vast amount of domain knowledge. Consider the basic task of choosing where you are going to store some data, well first you need to know which options exist and there's dozens of them (do you want Postgres, SQLite, Redis, LevelDB, ..?). Then you need to know the strengths and weaknesses of each. And I hope you…

if you want to create a CRUD app, then you probably don't need the best and latest library.

There are plenty of apps out there today which support millions of users but didn't choose the most optimal database, wasn't well architected, and has mountains of sloppy technical debt.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#186

Post by TheCoelacanth » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 3:25 PM UTC

aaavl2821 wrote: post #147

foamflower wrote: post #139

One (semi-pedantic) quibble with the article: there absolutely are barriers to entry for programming. Programming is hard! These barriers may not be artificial, but they are real. To use a non-software example, there are barriers to entry to chip manufacturers and power companies even under anarchy. Fabs are tremendously hard to build. Power plants are extremely hard to build. Building up knowledge and skills about c…

I think there are two interesting correlaries: 1) programming seems to be one of the only "hard" professions that pays well (compared to math researchers, hard science researchers, or even things like some social work -- that's really hard in entirely different ways). Of course I'm probably missing some hard stuff that pays well 2) programming seems to be the "hardest" of the high paying jobs mentioned. Once you get…

Programming is one of the few "hard" jobs that is demanded in very large quantities. There are roughly 1.6 million people working as programmers in the US[1]. That is approximately as many as all engineering professions combined (the largest individual engineering profession is mechanical with 285k). It is roughly 50% more than all life, physical and social sciences combined.

[1] https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm#17-0000

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#187

Post by vertex-four » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 3:25 PM UTC

d0lph wrote: post #174

dipppy wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously. A lot of comments in here are "Well it's hard so we deserve it!". There are thousands of developers making fractions of what their equally talented counterparts make in the US.

Offshore developed code is not usually the same quality. Not that we all deserve huge salaries, but code quality important.

Offshore developed code, when created using a similar process and for similar cost to US developed code, is usually of comparable quality.

You can get ridiculously poor quality of code by paying bottom dollar and failing to properly communicate with your developers, no matter what country those developers happen to be situated in.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#188

Post by ryandrake » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 3:27 PM UTC

Supernaut wrote: post #113

CalRobert wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Several years ago I worked in ad ops for one of the biggest publishers on the internet, making a bunch of ad placements by hand using Dart for Publishers, which was a dreadful product. I also was taking a night course in Java mostly for fun. At that point I didn't even know what functional programming, Big-O notation, or any of your other highfalutin' CS stuff was. All of the company's ads (thousands of different lin…

Doesn't your anecdote actually support my primary point, which is that a programmer with limited knowledge and experience will typically produce poor-quality software? (Or, to use your own terms, apps that are craptacular and awful?) An application, in my mind, is truly useful when it not only fulfils a user requirement, but is also dependable, scaleable and maintainable. It's not best practice for a business to base…

For most companies, craptacular software is heaps better than what they already have (nothing). The point is, any newbie with ~3 months of training can write a non-beautiful non-scalable, line of business program that produces measurable value.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#189

Post by ForHackernews » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 3:28 PM UTC

galieos_ghost wrote: post #183

aphextron wrote: post #134

>Another possibility is that U.S. immigration laws act as a protectionist barrier to prop up programmer compensation. It seems impossible for this to last (why shouldn’t there by really valuable non-U.S. companies), but it does appear to be somewhat true for now. I feel like this is the real issue here. The reason that the US has great companies is simply from the availability of large amounts of capital. And if the…

Someone in my family has fought for the US in every war since the civil war. They have fought, bled, and died for this country, paid taxes, and helped build it from a weak country to the most powerful civilization in human history. They did it because they wanted their children and grandchildren to have a better life. Why should I feel guilty about this?

Because you did absolutely nothing to earn having good family members?

Most people feel at least sheepish about their own success when faced with others, no less deserving, who experience failure.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#190

Post by foo232323 » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 3:28 PM UTC

mcmacintosh wrote: post #119

foo232323 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's about what I get after taxes, too (in EUR, ~3.6k EUR), but my retirement (with 7% interest) and healthcare costs are covered completely. Also I have about 40 vacation days and a 37h work week :)

would you have any advice for new graduate entering the market? where to look for and how when searching for jobs?

From my experience so far (cs/ee, software developer): work experience is more important than grades, current tech stack, interested/knowledgeable in what you're doing, networking (xing/linkedin helped quite a lot), bigger company for the first role also helped with salary. started out with about 58k (~13.8 salaries + bonus + >40 vacation days), quickly went up to around 80k (2yrs)