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The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

nytimes.com

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Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#181

Post by krapp »

xienze wrote: post #117
frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #32

This is the other side of globalization. Globalization is super nice when you're secure in your job, "hey everything is getting cheaper!" but when your job is the one in the crosshairs what you're feeling is a pressure that is pushing the living standard of the third world and yours together. That's why I find it so annoying that this board is usually against abundant H1B's but for factory outsourcing. It's completel…

What I don’t understand are the people who simultaneously complain about poverty in America and see absolutely no reason to apply any kind of standards for the people emigrating to this country (like, “must have an advanced degree”), or even any kind of limits on immigration at all. We are undoubtedly importing more people destined to live in poverty. Save me the rhetoric about every immigrant being a future doctor o…

Why should Americans hold new immigrants to such a strict standard, when they themselves can probably trace their own lineage back to someone who stepped off a boat on Ellis Island with barely a grasp on English or a penny to their (soon to be Anglicized) name? Why are low-skilled immigrants a net drain on society, but not the low-skilled children or grandchildren of immigrants? There are many, many more of the latter than the former.

The problem of poverty is systemic - trying to link it to immigration confuses correlation with cause.

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#182

Post by grasshopperpurp »

adamc wrote: post #151
wbl wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should Bubba live a better life then Liu Chu just because he was born in one country and Liu Chu another? Globalization has reduced extreme poverty worldwide, to the point where it will not exist in a few years. Globalization has very little to do with the plights of blacks in the Mississippi Delta. Old fashioned racism and a lack of jobs in sectors which aren't agriculture have a lot more to do with it.

We want all people to do well. But globalization didn't just help Liu Chu -- it helped many people in the U.S. Maybe we should redirect some of that gain back to Bubba.

>But globalization didn't just help Liu Chu -- it helped many people in the U.S. Maybe we should redirect some of that gain back to Bubba.

This is the key point.

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#183

Post by mizzack »

mschuster91 wrote: post #91
aaron-lebo wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could we not exaggerate? It doesn't help the discussion. plus all the violence committed by Nazis (e.g. the Heather Heyer murder and the other actions counted as right-wing domestic terrorism) "all of the violence", you listed one death. One death is a tragedy, but it's not a massively systematic problem unless we act like it is and turn it into one. You also act like there isn't such a thing as left-wing domestic te…

> One death is a tragedy, but it's not a massively systematic problem unless we act like it is and turn it into one. It is a systematic problem. 150 incidents between 1993 and 2017, an average of 6 terrorist incidents a year or once every two months. 255 people died, 603 people were injured. Source: https://www.adl.org/education/resources/reports/dark-constan... Note: this is just the violence that got counted as ter…

You're still exaggerating and conflating here. The majority of those deaths (168/250) came from a single incident--the OKC bombing--where neither perpetrator was a Nazi/racial extremist.

Hell, even trying to call the OKC bombing "right wing" might be a stretch. They were anti govt separatists!

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#184

Post by [deleted] »

workthrowaway27 wrote: post #179
sp332 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would those things change who gets paid more for the same work, or who has access to healthcare, or who is going to be hassled on the way to the voting booth, or who gets taken seriously when trying to buy a house, etc.

I never made any of those claims, nor do I endorse any of them. I will say that the concept of "same work" is very hard to define, and I don't think you can do so outside of very specific industries that are mostly low skill.

[deleted]

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#185

Post by balthasar »

aaron-lebo wrote: post #82
mschuster91 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Eventually one side will have to win out and then things will get very interesting. Well things are pretty violent already, with the deadly class war the police is fighting against the population (~1k in 2017, https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shoo... ) plus the countless arrests, macing, tasering and other violent actions of police against peaceful demonstrators, plus all the violence committ…

Could we not exaggerate? It doesn't help the discussion. plus all the violence committed by Nazis (e.g. the Heather Heyer murder and the other actions counted as right-wing domestic terrorism) "all of the violence", you listed one death. One death is a tragedy, but it's not a massively systematic problem unless we act like it is and turn it into one. You also act like there isn't such a thing as left-wing domestic te…

Considering the U.S. government was just shutdown over a purge of immigrants I'm not sure what more proof you need.

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#186

Post by xienze »

krapp wrote: post #181
xienze wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I don’t understand are the people who simultaneously complain about poverty in America and see absolutely no reason to apply any kind of standards for the people emigrating to this country (like, “must have an advanced degree”), or even any kind of limits on immigration at all. We are undoubtedly importing more people destined to live in poverty. Save me the rhetoric about every immigrant being a future doctor o…

Why should Americans hold new immigrants to such a strict standard, when they themselves can probably trace their own lineage back to someone who stepped off a boat on Ellis Island with barely a grasp on English or a penny to their (soon to be Anglicized) name? Why are low-skilled immigrants a net drain on society, but not the low-skilled children or grandchildren of immigrants? There are many, many more of the latte…

There was no welfare state for Ellis Island immigrants to fall back on. Indeed, about a third actually returned home[1]. And a large number were actually turned away after they had arrived here. Today, the situation is very different: if you can’t hack it here, why go back? The state will provide for you, probably much better than you could do if working at home (depending on where you came from). How many of today’s immigrants do you think actually go back?

> Why are low-skilled immigrants a net drain on society, but not the low-skilled children or grandchildren of immigrants?

Because those children are a sunk cost: they’re already here. Why compound the problem? The demand to come to the US is far too high to simply accept anyone who can make it here. And the fact that a greater percentage of immigrants are accepting welfare vs “natives”[2] indicates that we really are compounding the problem. We should be going almost exclusively for skilled immigration, like Australia does.

1: http://www.exodus2013.co.uk/immigrants-who-returned-home/ 2: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/09/01/immigr...

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#187

Post by balthasar »

mikejb wrote: post #22
balthasar wrote: post #2

Americans are slowly becoming more radical as a reaction to economic pressures. With each side's policies alien to the other, compromise becomes impossible. Eventually one side will have to win out and then things will get very interesting.

Interesting isn't the word I'd use, but I understand what you mean. I really hope that a third party will start to grow. Whilst it may have benefits, I think the two-party-system feeds a lot into the "with me or against me" concept.

A third party is not necessary. Both of the current U.S. political parties are very easily co-opted.

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#188

Post by ThomPete »

kingraoul3 wrote: post #177
ThomPete wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a big difference between just saying deep poverty and then qualifying what leads to this deep poverty. Just saying poverty is the cop out here trying to qualify what drives this problem offers at least a way to look at the problem that doesn't end in tax the rich as that will not solve the deep poverty problem.

Meanwhile, in the real world, it is the demand of Capital to grow at %6 a year regardless of the health of the overall economy that is fueling the attacks on the social safety net.

That demand is by design and is the price of a stable economy and is followed by more or less every country in the developed world.

Even in countries like Denmark (which is where I am originally from) and who have high taxes and a high degree of redistribution of wealth, you will find people who are poor and homeless.

Add to that the discussion about relative poverty and you will have a problem that can never be solved unless you give everyone one exactly the same.

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#189

Post by frgtpsswrdlame »

cobookman wrote: post #169
woodruffw wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to post this as a reply with the poster elided, since they deleted it and I think it's important: >> Heart disease kills more people than lung cancer, but there's nothing wrong with raising money to research lung cancer. > The difference is that face of diversity initiatives are zero sum. No, they are not. Hiring someone from a disadvantaged group does not mean that you have to fire someone from a privilege…

I just don’t buy that. Not every company has infinite head count. Universities for example only have so many spots they can offer. So if a university keeps 10% of the spots for diversity candidates, then only 90% of the capacity is for diversity candidates. Compounded with non diversity candidates applying in a disproportionately high number to diversity. And the population of non diverse having a better education. Y…

>You end up making it harder for non diverse candidates and raising their bar.

You're right but that's fine. The argument though is that society has already imposed a 'higher bar' on "diverse candidates" (let's just be honest and call them minorities and the poor.) Think of it like this. A poor black girl named Keycia lives at home with her single mother and three siblings. She's studious but attends a bad public school, she works after school to help out at home, she takes care of her little brothers and sisters. Now compare to Chad, a white boy from an upper middle class family. He's also studious and also attends a public school but a good one with AP/IB classes, dual credit and so on. He doesn't work but he does play on one of the best lacrosse teams in the state and also swims.

All of which is to say it's two kids both working hard. Now, even with diversity initiatives, who's got a better chance of getting into Stanford? Hell who's got a better chance of getting into Iowa State? Or even being able to attend? Diversity initiatives exist to put these two kids on even ground. That's what equality of opportunity means.

Re: The U.S. Can No Longer Hide from Its Deep Poverty Problem

#190

Post by [deleted] »

krapp wrote: post #181
xienze wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I don’t understand are the people who simultaneously complain about poverty in America and see absolutely no reason to apply any kind of standards for the people emigrating to this country (like, “must have an advanced degree”), or even any kind of limits on immigration at all. We are undoubtedly importing more people destined to live in poverty. Save me the rhetoric about every immigrant being a future doctor o…

Why should Americans hold new immigrants to such a strict standard, when they themselves can probably trace their own lineage back to someone who stepped off a boat on Ellis Island with barely a grasp on English or a penny to their (soon to be Anglicized) name? Why are low-skilled immigrants a net drain on society, but not the low-skilled children or grandchildren of immigrants? There are many, many more of the latte…

[deleted]
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