More than half of all private wealth has been inherited in most of Europe • Hacker News Board

Re: More than half of all private wealth has been inherited in most of Europe

#181

Post by rorykoehler » Mon, Dec 18, 2017, 1:39 PM UTC

adamlett wrote: post #178

rorykoehler wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry it's not bullshit. Governments in Europe are especially renowned for the any work is better than none approach and therefore even make up fake jobs to keep their unemployed subjects busy. Protestant work ethic withdrawal is evident and drawn out. Having experienced living in numerous countries i can safely say that taxes are often (not always) poorly spent in Europe. The bureaucracy is over bearing and many job…

Governments in Europe are especially renowned for the any work is better than none approach Are they now? It used to be true in the east bloc countries when they were all communist, but it's not remotely true in today's Germany where OP lives. Having experienced living in numerous countries i can safely say that taxes are often (not always) poorly spent in Europe People say that, and I hear: Taxes are not spent the w…

If you hear want you want to hear and not what I'm actually saying there is very little point in continuing our discussion.

Re: More than half of all private wealth has been inherited in most of Europe

#182

Post by ataturk » Mon, Dec 18, 2017, 1:41 PM UTC

kiliantics wrote: post #67

gbacon wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How then is it possible that some four in five American millionaires inherited no more than ten thousand dollars, according to The Millionaire Next Door by Thomas Stanley?

A millionaire is hardly wealthy these days. Upper middle class rich, sure. But not "an estate to leave to my heirs" rich. Someone who got a good middle class start, went into the right career, and had everything work out pretty well (no major financial misfortune or an injury or sick family member) while saving responsibly, can become a millionaire in a few decades today. They can probably afford a nice house, which…

Speaking as one, I can tell you that having a couple million takes the edge off of everything in life. You don't sweat buying a house or pretty much any new car anytime you want it. The monthly bills are in the noise as far as concerns in life. I still go to work every day but I won't be working until age 65, that's for certain; not full time, anyways. My kids will be able to be entrepreneurs if they wish, they have a comfortable fallback that I never had. Less stress in life is a good thing.

What's different today is that inflation and high taxes have wrecked the middle class. The truly rich are the $100M and billionaire types whose wealth has run away from the rest of the people. Almost none of the truly wealthy are that way because they were smart (merit) only a few are. The rest . got rich either because they were lucky or because of some angle they could exploit such as favorable connections or regulatory capture. Above them, Old Money rules the world by at least one order of magnitude.

Re: More than half of all private wealth has been inherited in most of Europe

#183

Post by eksabajt » Mon, Dec 18, 2017, 2:02 PM UTC

ajeet_dhaliwal wrote: post #24

Won’t this eventually happen in the United States too? What’s stopping it other than a later start. There’s more entrepreneurial spirit perhaps but the sons and daughters of wealth creators will still inherit.

I'm not certain about the figures for wealth mobility, but intergenerational income mobility is already worse in the United States than in Europe and has been for some time.

https://wol.iza.org/uploads/articles/176/pdfs/intergeneratio...

Re: More than half of all private wealth has been inherited in most of Europe

#184

Post by capisce » Mon, Dec 18, 2017, 2:04 PM UTC

RyanZAG wrote: post #135

capisce wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wealth distribution would not fix this. But a certain amount of wealth distribution could improve the life quality of those born with less potential.

> improve the life quality of those born with less potential While a noble goal, I don't believe this is a goal shared by the majority of the population. I think if you ran a poll between "improve the life quality of those born with less potential" and "improve the progress of humanity", the results would favor the later. Is it better to bring fresh cold water to all, or hot and cold water to some? If it cost $100 to…

> While a noble goal, I don't believe this is a goal shared by the majority of the population.

Then why do most countries have welfare for the poor?

> I think if you ran a poll between "improve the life quality of those born with less potential" and "improve the progress of humanity", the results would favor the later.

What's the point of improving the progress of humanity if not to actually make life better for the majority of humans?

In a few decades the majority of the population might find _themselves_ poor due to not being born with enough potential to compete with automation and robots. Should we keep engineering the economy such as to only improve life quality for the most fortunate?

Re: More than half of all private wealth has been inherited in most of Europe

#185

Post by murph-almighty » Mon, Dec 18, 2017, 3:10 PM UTC

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #155

aaronblohowiak wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet “Fifty-seven percent of Americans don't have enough cash to cover a $500 unexpected expense”. We suck at saving as a country.

15% of those are in poverty. This doesn't let you save up money. One in two americans are low income. [1]. I'd not call these number exact, but close enough. Much of the group you describe only suck at saving because their income sucks. $50-$100 extra a month doesn't make it easy to save up $500 for an emergency. Literally months. Months with nothing happening. Not a flat tire, not a doctor's appointment. Nothing bre…

15 percentage points, or 15 percent of the 57%?

Re: More than half of all private wealth has been inherited in most of Europe

#186

Post by justinhj » Mon, Dec 18, 2017, 3:16 PM UTC

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #153

smsm42 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can access 401k under "financial hardship", after paying taxes and 10% penalty. Of course, it's rarely worth it for $500 - it'd be better to find a credit card with 0% APR or other credit option, if you have access to those. I imagine most people with 401k's do have access to credit. Am I wrong? You can also loan against 401k (though there are limits, but if you have it for a while loaning $500 would not be a pro…

"I imagine most people with 401k's do have access to credit. Am I wrong?" Yes. Low-paying jobs at Wal-mart and Lowes and some gas stations offer a 401k. The contributions are tiny because the checks are tiny but the company usually contributes as well. These folks aren't as likely to have access to credit. I'll put this as well: If you are looking to take $500 from your 401k outside of those groups, I'm gonna guess t…

Plus the fact that to a person with cash difficulties going to their 401k to get money wouldn’t be easy. Even if you can find someone to help you they’re going to mail you a cheque some time in the future. Hence the success of pay day loan operations that are more than happy to help you out with that immediate $500 emergency.

Re: More than half of all private wealth has been inherited in most of Europe

#187

Post by fuzzfactor » Mon, Dec 18, 2017, 4:14 PM UTC

carlob wrote: post #144

rorykoehler wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All these proposals about taxing more make me feel uneasy. The real issue i have with tax isn't how much i pay but how it is used. Before i need to pay even more tax i would like to see a concerted effort to automate civil service jobs out of existence (needing to queue at 5am in the morning to get anything done in Berlin is an inexcusable joke in 21st century) and two we need to destroy the unemployment welfare syst…

The main problem is that right now we have absolutely no idea of where the wealth is. One of the most important consequences of the universal income tax was the production of a huge amount of data. There is no equivalent for wealth, even things like Forbes lists are mostly guesswork and handwaving.

>More than half of all private wealth has been inherited in most of Europe

The only time that wasn't true in the USA was before income started being taxed.

If you do the math, the only tax which is not destructive to working people is taxing commerce.

That's the way the US federal government was funded when free enterprise was more available to a greaater percentage of citizens. Switching over to income taxes shifted the burden dramatically from the powerful to the relatively powerless. What more effectie way was there at the time to keep down the first freeborn decendandts of slaves after bondage ended?

The most prominent feature of taxing income is its huge damping effect on upward mobility.

That's OK, the ones who instituted income tax to begin with did so because as far as they were concerned enough citizens had moved up already, especially from the very bottom.

That's the most important consequence.

This is by design.

It's probably best to try and look beyond conventional wisdom when invoking caca del toro.

Re: More than half of all private wealth has been inherited in most of Europe

#188

Post by c22 » Mon, Dec 18, 2017, 4:15 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #85

bradfitz wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I guess mom made the right decision coming here Where's here? Oh, from your Hacker News profile -> Twitter profile ( https://twitter.com/doreen_michele ) which says "Southwest Coastal Washington".

I'm sure you were just making polite conversation but it's maybe not so great to follow two pointer hops to someone's personal details. People have many reasons for being sensitive about these things. I've never thought about it before, but your comment made me realize that maybe the best thing is to feel free to mention what's in someone's HN profile but leave it at that. On the other hand, I broke that myself only…

I would probably feel a little weird if someone combed through my posts or combined things I've said with search engine research to dox me, but anything posted publicly in a profile seems like fair game. If I put a link to my personal website in my profile and on my website I publish my address I have no problem being contacted that way, but if you find my address through the DNS and send me a letter it might be awkward.

Re: More than half of all private wealth has been inherited in most of Europe

#189

Post by Broken_Hippo » Mon, Dec 18, 2017, 4:16 PM UTC

murph-almighty wrote: post #185

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

15% of those are in poverty. This doesn't let you save up money. One in two americans are low income. [1]. I'd not call these number exact, but close enough. Much of the group you describe only suck at saving because their income sucks. $50-$100 extra a month doesn't make it easy to save up $500 for an emergency. Literally months. Months with nothing happening. Not a flat tire, not a doctor's appointment. Nothing bre…

15 percentage points, or 15 percent of the 57%?

The first. The percentage would be higher if taken from the 57%.

Re: More than half of all private wealth has been inherited in most of Europe

#190

Post by victormours » Mon, Dec 18, 2017, 4:28 PM UTC

rorykoehler wrote: post #139

carlob wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or as Piketty proposed tax wealth as well as income. Right now some country implement some inheritance tax, but that's the only time when wealth is actually measured and taxed and there are so many loopholes (trust funds, donations, …) to make this incredibly ineffective especially on the richest.

All these proposals about taxing more make me feel uneasy. The real issue i have with tax isn't how much i pay but how it is used. Before i need to pay even more tax i would like to see a concerted effort to automate civil service jobs out of existence (needing to queue at 5am in the morning to get anything done in Berlin is an inexcusable joke in 21st century) and two we need to destroy the unemployment welfare syst…

This might be a chicken and egg problem: we need takes to fund the work of automating away these things. Just saying "public service is not good enough, so i don't want to pay more money to make it better" seems like a dead end.