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The world's most toxic value system (2001)

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Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The weirdest thing was the drive by defense of the Confederate flag. That tipping of the hand was downright parkinsonian.

There are historical views stating that the American Civil War was in fact a secessionist war against an increasingly powerful federal government and that slavery was just used as one cause, obviously the most "despicable" from today's view, in an effort to legitimize an otherwise illegitimate war against secessionist states. You can see this partly in quotes from Lincoln, in constitutional law of the states (some ex…

Free southerners (to massively oversimplify, and with recognition that this excludes the very different concerns of enslaved southerners) were worried about the federal government getting both strong enough and regionally diverse enough to abolish slavery, which they felt would be both culturally and economically disastrous.

Northerners (to also massively oversimplify) didn't really care one way or the other about the moral question of slavery, at least not until fairly late in the war. They were worried about the Union dissolving into a dozen perpetually feuding nation states (like they saw in 19th century Europe) and taking American prosperity and power with it.

Both sides were probably correct. Had the war not occurred, abolition via the political process was eventually inevitable. Demographics weren't on the Confederate side. And had the Confederacy succeeded there's almost certainly no Pax Americana in the 20th century.

The American Civil War was fundamentally about slavery. It was also fundamentally about states rights vs federal power. Specifically, it was about the inherent instability of a specific, geographically coherent region having a slave economy inside a larger nation where slavery was generally illegal and where they would no longer unilaterally held any political veto points. But more fundamentally, why should it be surprising that the people who disagreed strongly enough to shoot at one another didn't cleanly line up about the exact single issue they were fighting about? History's not under any obligation to be simple and coherent.

And since this thread is already Godwined, If you went back and polled the average German circa 1940 on whether their flag was racist, I suspect the vast majority would emphatically insist it was about national pride and cultural unity and whatnot. Most arguments about why the Confederate flag is fine also accidentally serve as compelling arguments as to why Swatstikas are fine, and I've yet to hear a compelling distinction between the two cases.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#182
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Saudi Arabia viewed cleaning as women's work, sure, just like nearly every country in Europe 100 years ago. Gender equality is still a big problem in Europe, actually: https://www.oecd.org/inequality.htm#gender

>Gender equality is still a big problem in Europe Men and women are equal under the law (in most or all European states) when it comes to labour. Gender inequality in Europe is largely caused by individual choices. This is best demonstrated by the fact that in poorer countries of eastern Europe, women are much more represented in STEM as it's a good way out of poverty, while richer countries (such as Scandinavian) wh…

Well, assuming that men and women would make the same choices given the same options, we must consider countries were the number of women in STEM fields is close to that of the men to be much more equal for women, than countries where this is not the case.

Otherwise, you have to explain why womens' "individual choices" would differ from those of men. I note that assuming that they do not is the simplext theory that needs the least complex explanation.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah those famous “individual choices” which are perfectly spherical, and in a vacuum. /s

Are you saying those choices are influenced?

I’m saying they’re not made in the ideal case, free from external pressure, influence, and so on.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any discussion of morality is moot in a society where genital mutilation (of any gender) is tolerated.

Most people in the US seem to be far more tolerant of circumcision than FGM. And under many definitions, circumcision qualifies as genital mutilation...

Yes, we agree completely!

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people in the US seem to be far more tolerant of circumcision than FGM. And under many definitions, circumcision qualifies as genital mutilation...

Yes, we agree completely!

Ergo any discussion of morality is moot in America society? What exactly are we doing here?

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#186
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually i would argue the opposite. Not to the extent of genocide but the lid has really blown on Hollywood's sexual harassment problem (read: rape culture). Let's not forget Uber's contribution there and of course the whole gamer gate scandal which is still fresh in the minds of the people involved in the community. Racism, classism, and authoritarianism's roaring 2017 comeback. Then there's Madoff, Exon (classic)…

> and of course the whole gamer gate scandal What about that? The feminist-frequency videos where reverse dog-whistles; insults directed at the gamer community, but couched in misrepresentations and pseudo-intellectual terminology to dress it up as honest critique. Then the trolling and cyber harassment that was received from some demographics were used to tar any critic with the same "GG-supporter" brush. Not at all…

sure

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Officially, perhaps, but our coastal bubbles clearly believe that current liberal democratic values and attitudes are superior.

And yet we are hesitant to push out values on people from other cultures. It's a very different dilemma that I think Houellebecq portrayed fabulously in "Submission". Liberals are eager to defend other cultures whose values could hardly new more opposite. It's fascinating really and a tough position. It's admirable and pathetic at the same time and I'm not sure there is a good answer.

Liberals in the USA were defined by their willingness to push their values, beliefs onto others. That was the New Deal. The War Machine got their profiteering and Labor got their middle class. Uniting left and right, over the objections of the isolationist (minor caucus within the Republican coalition).

That Cold War ear consensus was mooted by the fall of the USSR. A new consensus has not emerged (been forged). Nowadays, we of the left are more aware of blowback, and so are more hesitate to support Gun Boat Diplomacy.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#188
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet we are hesitant to push out values on people from other cultures. It's a very different dilemma that I think Houellebecq portrayed fabulously in "Submission". Liberals are eager to defend other cultures whose values could hardly new more opposite. It's fascinating really and a tough position. It's admirable and pathetic at the same time and I'm not sure there is a good answer.

And in the same vein, Liberals show no hesitation in lambasting other people with markedly different values (such as central/southern U.S.) who they lump in as "the same culture" and so consider a valid target.

You're not wrong. Mocking country bumpkins has been our national past time, making the careers of H. L. Mencken and contemporaries.

Two major fronts in the modern culture wars started with industrialization (urbanization), and the south's remything their humiliating unconditional surrender and occupation in defense of slavery as some kind of Noble Lost Cause (victimhood).

As a proud urban progressive, I'm only too eager, happy to hail the wambulance for anyone railing against us job creators and fitness nuts. So I guess I'm no better.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True Detective Season 1 is a very deep, nuanced study of exactly what you describe in the South.

How so? It didn't especially focus on honor or vendettas, it was about cults, abuse, and a cover-up. Based in the South, yeah, but not getting the honor connection.

Think of Hart vs Cohle as an analogy to shame vs guilt cultures.

One particular scene I recalled when reading this article was the punishment Hart exacted on the two boys he caught with his daughter. Contrast that to his behavior towards the young women he cheated on his wife with, which is reminiscent of the honor culture described here.

Another scene he saw he a woman he was having an affair with seeing another man and proceeded to assault him in her own apartment. Again very reminiscent of the honor culture. We can see how Hart is unable to comprehend the moral inconsistency of his actions.

Contrast with Cohle, who feels deep guilt over the loss of his daughter and does not engage in any infidelity over the course of the series. (Besides the incident with Maggie, however it was something she goaded him into and he was single at the time.)

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? It didn't especially focus on honor or vendettas, it was about cults, abuse, and a cover-up. Based in the South, yeah, but not getting the honor connection.

Think of Hart vs Cohle as an analogy to shame vs guilt cultures. One particular scene I recalled when reading this article was the punishment Hart exacted on the two boys he caught with his daughter. Contrast that to his behavior towards the young women he cheated on his wife with, which is reminiscent of the honor culture described here. Another scene he saw he a woman he was having an affair with seeing another man…

Also common thread in these situations was that the women were denied agency by Hart in his interactions with them.
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