I don’t want to be a software developer anymore • Hacker News Board

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#181

Post by ThrowawayR2 » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 5:54 PM UTC

BenchRouter wrote: post #165

folknor wrote: post #16

I really struggle to find anything worth reacting to in this blog post. It sounds to me like the story of every individual worker in every economy. Most of what she says is entirely self-evident, except for the anecdotes about pay/equity, for which she presents zero evidence. Where is the substance? Why is this interesting? Every dad in the world knows that a hobby is different from work, and that turning your hobby…

> Most people have way more taxing jobs than IT. I've been in construction for 3 years, and that work is no joke. There's some discussion of this above, but I think it's interesting that the alternative to software development is seemingly always construction, or delivering food, or being a waiter. Wouldn't the more apt comparison be something like law? Or medicine? Or has software development truly reached blue-coll…

> Wouldn't the more apt comparison be something like law?

An often stressful profession, requires extensive post-graduate education (which most developers don't have), has strict licensing requirements to keep out people. Doesn't pay as well as software development, relative to the requirements and responsibility.

> Or medicine?

A highly stressful profession (your patients could die), requires extensive post-graduate education (which most developers don't have), has strict licensing requirements to keep out people, and high liability for making mistakes. Also doesn't pay as well as software development, relative to the requirements and responsibility.

Software development comes out well ahead there too.

> Or has software development truly reached blue-collar status and we're essentially plumbers/electricians?

Maybe I'm just getting jaded but I'd say yes. Outside the big 4 and a few other niches, most developers seem to just be gluing together whichever pre-made web frameworks and libraries happen to currently be in vogue. Patience with the endless yak-shaving needed to get anything to work rather than any particular technical brilliance is the primary requirement for career longevity.

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#182

Post by auggierose » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 5:56 PM UTC

There are a lot of answers here that say "there are so many worse jobs, and I've done some of them, so be grateful for the comparatively cushion job you have".

I can understand this, and it is great to have people working for you who are willing to push through whatever shit you give them.

On the other hand, great people really are about bending the context space to make seemingly large distances become small distances. Then you don't have to push through as much shit as you thought in the beginning.

You don't want to lose the second kind of people by creating work environments in which only the first kind of people can thrive.

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#183

Post by walshemj » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 5:57 PM UTC

folknor wrote: post #16

I really struggle to find anything worth reacting to in this blog post. It sounds to me like the story of every individual worker in every economy. Most of what she says is entirely self-evident, except for the anecdotes about pay/equity, for which she presents zero evidence. Where is the substance? Why is this interesting? Every dad in the world knows that a hobby is different from work, and that turning your hobby…

That's a thing BTW I recall an article in the guardian a few years ago on some small coal mines in west virgina did hire women for less wages than men

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#184

Post by walshemj » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 5:59 PM UTC

fpisfun wrote: post #68

folknor wrote: post #16

I really struggle to find anything worth reacting to in this blog post. It sounds to me like the story of every individual worker in every economy. Most of what she says is entirely self-evident, except for the anecdotes about pay/equity, for which she presents zero evidence. Where is the substance? Why is this interesting? Every dad in the world knows that a hobby is different from work, and that turning your hobby…

It is pretty funny that she would insinuate they would hire more women to pay them less because a good developer is so much more productive than a bad one so, at least for an "on site "job where you're only pulling from local talent it would be horribly destructive to always hire people that are paid a bit less as most likely those willing to take less money will be substantially less skilled.

doesn't many companies stop out sourcing to low cost body shops does it

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#185

Post by dlwdlw » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 6:03 PM UTC

I think one perspective shift that needs to occur in tech is not of lowering some bar but recognition that many bars are unnecessarily high. Many interviews can end up selecting for group compatibility "Can she passionately discuss Haskell at our group outings." Rather than ability to do the job. It's actually "important" though as without group cohesion new people can find it difficult to get help and up to speed.

Though this sounds like an "immature" type of environment it's probably fairly common at different levels of extremeness. Male vocations tend to have less work/life balance with more meaning derived from work than other things like family/relationships/hobbies. The bar can't be lowered without draining a portion of meaning which exists primarily in arbitrary difficulty/moats/hazing-rituals.

Everyone just wants to feel good about themselves. But when that feeling can't be derived internally (like being able to choose and follow a hobby) the only option is externally derived feelings of usefulness which necessitate one-upping something. If it's not "I'm Ok" then it's "I'm better than you." If it's not about living then it has to be about winning.

And winning is the culture of young males striving for meaning in the world.

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#186

Post by samirillian » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 6:04 PM UTC

jameskegel wrote: post #11

I read the article; I'm not sure this is so much a criticism of the industry as it is an examination of this developer's personal anecdotal experience. As developers, we lead a very charmed life that others sometimes aren't even born with the chance to intellectually compete for; the author neglects to address how lucky we are to be able to do this at all, let alone to then find employment in it. If it's not an indus…

This is a perfect example of the tone that people (men) effect when they want to mask their own emotional reaction to feeling attacked with a veneer of logicism or scientificity. Simply state that her claims are anecdotal, and without even addressing the core of the argument you've managed to make them sound _unreasonable_. At least to those amenable to that kind of passive aggressive ad hominem.

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#187

Post by heimidal » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 6:05 PM UTC

tboyd47 wrote: post #140

Consultant32452 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why wouldn't she? Because it's unethical to agree to work for a rate you're not actually willing to work for. She wasted a lot of people's time and resources to bring her on board for those three weeks. >The point I'm trying to make is that the company needed her more than she needed them. I wouldn't want to work with a person who accepts an offer and then THREE WEEKS later starts demanding raises, no matter what th…

Like I said, maybe she knew her worth and just wanted to get her foot in the door. I never said she asked for a raise. She just found a better offer elsewhere, and probably would had stayed for the right counteroffer. I wouldn't want to work with a person who puts their own ideas about when it's appropriate to expect a raise over keeping bright people. She didn't waste anyone's time; unlike most, she was productive f…

Counteroffers are widely regarded as a terrible thing to offer -- it sets a precedent that anyone, at any time, can attempt to hold your company hostage for more money. Most organizations with much industry experience will pass on any sort of counteroffer.

And it's likely that she _absolutely did_ waste people's time -- the company may have passed on other candidates to hire her and had to start over.

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#188

Post by fapjacks » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 6:07 PM UTC

I dunno. I spent a bunch of years shooting at people and getting shot at, literally, and I can't tell you how much that has helped me not take this dreamlike existence for granted. This post serves as a reminder that the biggest problem some people will face today is that someone at Chipotle forgot they didn't want guacamole on their burrito. We should be grateful for the opportunity. Meanwhile, just open really any history book or newspaper. Most people are living or have lived hard lives.

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#189

Post by walshemj » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 6:07 PM UTC

arkh wrote: post #79

gjvc wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Old programmers I see around had all learned not to let companies burn them out." Great observation. Did you ever have any of those "old programmers" offer you any advice in this respect?

"The only pressure you get is the one you accept". Just learn to say no. I think that's the most important thing women and shy people need to learn. No. "You should work late to show your commitment". "No". "We over-promised so it is crunch time". "No". "Here is a company phone so we can contact you easily in case of emergency". "No". And sleeping enough every day is one of the most important things you can do. And f…

"Here is a company phone so we can contact you easily in case of emergency".

Id say ok what's the rate for 1/4 and of course I will be paid a minimum of 4 hours for any call out at OT rates (or the equivalent in TOIL)

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#190

Post by vlehto » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 6:10 PM UTC

tboyd47 wrote: post #21

jameskegel wrote: post #11

I read the article; I'm not sure this is so much a criticism of the industry as it is an examination of this developer's personal anecdotal experience. As developers, we lead a very charmed life that others sometimes aren't even born with the chance to intellectually compete for; the author neglects to address how lucky we are to be able to do this at all, let alone to then find employment in it. If it's not an indus…

It's not too much to ask for equitable pay or a non-hazardous environment. Gratitude for something doesn't necessitate being blind to ways that thing could be improved.

Equitable pay = Equitable job security

Look at any unemployment chart since 80's and women have better job security than men. And the difference typically increases a lot in economic depression.