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On Being Midwestern: The Burden of Normality

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Re: On Being Midwestern: The Burden of Normality

#181

Post by repstosw »

coldtea wrote: post #165
Veelox wrote: post #61

I grew up in the Midwest and moved to Silicon Valley. I think that people here don't understand what this author describes as "Midwestern history is a study in racial quarantine." I would go as far as to say that racial is the wrong word to describe what happens in the Midwest. I think that communities in the Midwest have tighter cultural restrictions on what it means to be "one of us." This can be affected by where…

> Yet on the other hand, most PoC in the Midwest have a culture that is different on most of the above. So when a white Midwesterner doesn't treat a black Midwesterner that speaks, dresses, even walks differently as a part of the community is it racism? I would say no since it isn't about race but is about culture. That would explain the slavery, Jim Crow laws, lynching, and segregation...

I think this discussion is geared a lot more towards the Upper Midwest, not the South as a whole. As many are saying, the climate of discrimination is very different between the two.

Re: On Being Midwestern: The Burden of Normality

#182

Post by colanderman »

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #166
colanderman wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I personally don't like multiculturalism" I'm pretty sure it was the offspring of people who "don't like multiculturalism" who beat me up in middle school for being part of geek culture rather than the prevailing rural culture of my hometown. I personally am a big fan of respecting others despite cultural differences.

> I'm pretty sure it was the offspring of people who "don't like multiculturalism" who beat me up in middle school for being part of geek culture rather than the prevailing rural culture of my hometown. Any ideology taken to a violent extreme is bad. There are people who are getting beaten up for believing there should be a southern border wall. Those people beating them up are in the wrong, but that doesn't mean the…

Devaluing those who don't conform to local cultural norms destigmatizes violence against them. If you promulgate the belief that cultures should not mix, you cannot disavow blame for violence committed against those of a minority culture just because you personally didn't raise a hand against them.

> If someone walked down the streets naked, would you not think they're crazy? If a man wanted to stone a gay person, or shun a woman for exposing her hair, would you not look at that person with disdain?

You are conflating laws with culture to make a strawman. GP specifically talked about black culture, not violent-religious-fundamentalist-nudist culture.

Re: On Being Midwestern: The Burden of Normality

#183

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

torstenvl wrote: post #146
closeparen wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The modern left-wing view of racism is as a systematic, structural power relationship between races. Individual decisions branching on skin color is neither necessary nor sufficient to get there, although it can and historically has contributed. For example, divesting from your neighborhood out of concern for your property value when PoC start to move in does not necessarily reflect an individual racial bias. It coul…

The problem with that view is that, in such a definition of racism, it quite simply is not an -ism.

Of course it is, it's just systemic, not individualized.

Re: On Being Midwestern: The Burden of Normality

#184

Post by TheAdamAndChe »

colanderman wrote: post #182
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm pretty sure it was the offspring of people who "don't like multiculturalism" who beat me up in middle school for being part of geek culture rather than the prevailing rural culture of my hometown. Any ideology taken to a violent extreme is bad. There are people who are getting beaten up for believing there should be a southern border wall. Those people beating them up are in the wrong, but that doesn't mean the…

Devaluing those who don't conform to local cultural norms destigmatizes violence against them. If you promulgate the belief that cultures should not mix, you cannot disavow blame for violence committed against those of a minority culture just because you personally didn't raise a hand against them. > If someone walked down the streets naked, would you not think they're crazy? If a man wanted to stone a gay person, or…

> If you promulgate the belief that cultures should not mix, you cannot disavow blame for violence committed against those of another culture just because you personally didn't raise a hand against them.

This is a slippery slope fallacy, saying any sort of action in one direction will lead to or promote violence. A lot can be accomplished without violence.

> You are conflating laws with culture to make a strawman.

No, I'm not. Those are laws because they are social norms that have been deemed unacceptable to break, thus are enforced. Regardless of whether or not you call the cops, you would still think they're crazy for walking around naked, because our cultural norms say that anyone walking around naked is crazy, not because they're breaking the law.

> GP specifically talked about black culture, not violent-religious-fundamentalism-nudist culture.

Where did I mention a violent-religious-fundamentalism-nudist culture? Be honest, would that _really_ be the first thing you think about when you see someone walking naked in the middle of the street?

Re: On Being Midwestern: The Burden of Normality

#185

Post by logfromblammo »

ph33t wrote: post #64

An observation ... just the fact that many here treat the "midwest" as one place in their comments speaks of maybe misunderstanding/ignorance or even arrogance. As a person who has lived in Wisconsin (suburban and rural), Minnesota (urban and suburban), and Chicago, there is an absolutely astounding difference in people, attitude, and culture in all 3 areas. Granted none are really like the east or west coasts, but t…

I have lived in Minnesota, Indiana, Illinois, and Wisconsin.

They are very different to us, but they are more like each other (and Ontario) than they are like the other places I have been. I can definitely see how outsiders might consider them to be indistinguishably similar without actually living in multiple regions of the Midwest.

Re: On Being Midwestern: The Burden of Normality

#186

Post by rrhd »

> Canada and our Midwest share, among other things, manners, weather, topography, and a tendency among their inhabitants to downplay their own racism

uh okay.

The author does no Canada is larger than the US? Seems kind of ridiculous to paint an entire country like this.

Re: On Being Midwestern: The Burden of Normality

#187

Post by [deleted] »

closeparen wrote: post #118
Veelox wrote: post #61

I grew up in the Midwest and moved to Silicon Valley. I think that people here don't understand what this author describes as "Midwestern history is a study in racial quarantine." I would go as far as to say that racial is the wrong word to describe what happens in the Midwest. I think that communities in the Midwest have tighter cultural restrictions on what it means to be "one of us." This can be affected by where…

The modern left-wing view of racism is as a systematic, structural power relationship between races. Individual decisions branching on skin color is neither necessary nor sufficient to get there, although it can and historically has contributed. For example, divesting from your neighborhood out of concern for your property value when PoC start to move in does not necessarily reflect an individual racial bias. It coul…

[deleted]

Re: On Being Midwestern: The Burden of Normality

#188

Post by JamesBarney »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #164
mcguire wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, you are arguing that New Yorkers don't make a distinction between themselves and not-New Yorkers? I've never lived in New York; what about all those sitcom references to the differences between Manhattenites and Brooklyners? Or the Bronx? How can I, as a random Texan, tell the difference between someone from Gramercy Park and someone from New Jersey? (The part of me that wants to watch the world burn would like t…

We don't really make distinctions between fellow New Yorkers based on the kinds of tiny differences described. Our distribution has much more variance, so we need to go "further out" before we actually care. Like, New Jerseyans think New Yorkers are snobby, New Yorkers think New Jerseyans are sleazy and uncultured, but you'd never, ever expect people to have a problem working or living together because of the differe…

Being willing to work together is a low bar for discrimination. A lower bar would be more likely to hire someone with equivalent credentials.

I imagine if you looked into it, New Yorkers would be much more likely to hire a New Yorkers over a New Jerseyan with similar credentials.

Re: On Being Midwestern: The Burden of Normality

#189

Post by Oxitendwe »

CodeCube wrote: post #171
Oxitendwe wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Does anyone have suggestions on how to fix this? One option would be to have the cultures integrate so there are not sub communities for PoC. I find it a bit insane that people think that this is even something that needs to be fixed - why can't different ethnic groups live among themselves, instead of being required to lose their ethnic identity and become part of the larger group? Do you seriously think that's wha…

Why does living next to someone else destroy an ethnic identity? Does a chinese family moving into an italian neighborhood all of a sudden mean that no one can open an italian restaurant? If there is a German festival one weekend, does that mean they can't have a Scottish highland festival the next weekend in the same venue? Does a Russian family moving in next door mean that I have to start drinking Vodka instead of…

>Does a chinese family moving into an italian neighborhood all of a sudden mean that no one can open an italian restaurant?

No. It does mean a lot of other things though, like a vastly increased chance of chinese/italian intermarriage for their descendants, which means their descendants will not share your ethnic identity - it will be destroyed. Whether you think that's a good or a bad thing is an entirely different matter.

>the only reason you would not want to live near someone else, is because you (not you personally, in the general sense) don't like that someone else.

Not liking someone is not the same as not wanting your descendants to be like them. Wanting for yourself (or, your group) is not the same as hatred of everyone else.

Re: On Being Midwestern: The Burden of Normality

#190

Post by twblalock »

Oxitendwe wrote: post #145
closeparen wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The modern left-wing view of racism is as a systematic, structural power relationship between races. Individual decisions branching on skin color is neither necessary nor sufficient to get there, although it can and historically has contributed. For example, divesting from your neighborhood out of concern for your property value when PoC start to move in does not necessarily reflect an individual racial bias. It coul…

Or, to put it a different way, "You don't actually need to be racist in order to be racist."

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but that's correct under the explanation of racism given by the parent comment (which is not merely the left-wing view, but the consensus academic view).

The example about divesting from a neighborhood due to concerns about property value is spot-on. In a systematically racist society, it is rational to behave in ways that produce racist outcomes even one does not personally have racist beliefs. Racism ends up being perpetuated even if most people don't think of themselves as racists or believe they are doing anything to promote unfair racial outcomes.

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