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As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

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Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#181

Post by deong »

vonmoltke wrote: post #160
mikegerwitz wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interest usually correlates with the desire to learn and explore on one's own time. If you have a team of interested developers/hackers, then the lack of enthusiasm can drag the team down, both in knowledge and culturally. This isn't always true, of course. Some developers can have excellent skill and have no interest in programming outside of work. I have a coworker that does virtually nothing outside of work, doesn…

> Interest usually correlates with the desire to learn and explore on one's own time. I don't agree. Interest in doing a good job (i.e. work ethic) usually correlates with this, but I do not think work ethic corresponds very well with interest in the field. > If you have a team of interested developers/hackers, then the lack of enthusiasm can drag the team down, both in knowledge and culturally. I think part of my pr…

The world isn't that binary. No one is suggesting you hire a bunch of people who don't care at all about solving actual problems and who would just screw around all day messing with whatever shiny object caught their eye.

The discussion is whether someone who is just in it "for the paycheck" will be able to solve those business problems as effectively as someone who has a deeper interest in technology for technology's sake. By itself, that's obviously not enough signal to say one way or the other. There certainly are extremely valuable people who don't code outside of work, follow new language and tool discussions online, etc. I think it's equally obvious though that such an interest is a positive signal. If you told me nothing else about two potential hires except person A writes Java at work and has no interest in the field beyond that, and person B writes Java at work, but has a Github page full of utilities she wrote in Go, Lisp, Haskell, whatever, I'd bet a small amount that person B is probably better at solving technical problems. You can't say that for sure, and any of the myriad other factors that actually do matter could break the other way and make person A the better hire for an actual business, but outside interest is a positively correlated trait.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#182

Post by hashkb »

phatbyte wrote: post #117

As someone who interviewed dozens of bootcampers I can give some insight. 1) Most of the bootcamps teach the basic of front-end, and a lot of them, teach by doing without explaining a lot of basic concepts. They are basically money grabbers and throw these people out of the door as fast as possible to get their money back. 2) A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job. Sorry, but it's tru…

I taught at a boot camp; can confirm you are right.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#183

Post by splintercell »

jasode wrote: post #136
vonmoltke wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job. Who cares? Can they do the job or not? Do they have the work ethic and professionalism to continue to do so? The vast majority of people, including those who excel at their respective fields, don't love their jobs. This industry needs to stop using "passion" as a lazy signal for work ethic. > The most boring developers I work with, the the one…

>Who cares? Many programmers who enjoy programming will have a preference for hiring other programmers who also enjoy it. That doesn't mean they can't hire dispassionate programmers but that still doesn't erase the preference for passionate programmers. >This industry needs to stop using "passion" as a lazy signal for work ethic. There's definitely a place for dispassionate programmers (as that's probably the majorit…

> Many programmers who enjoy programming will have a preference for hiring other programmers who also enjoy it. That doesn't mean they can't hire dispassionate programmers but that still doesn't erase the preference for passionate programmers.

Exactly, and it isn't just 'Work Ethic', I wanna work with these guys [1] in 'Silicon Valley' tv show who would go around doing a Jerk off calculation just because it is a fun calculation to do. Not just people with strong 'Work ethic'.

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY7aQEhIxYA

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#184

Post by gaius »

peter303 wrote: post #95

At the annual Denver Startup Week I notice about a third to half of the startup industry is incestuous, that provides facilities for developers to work better. These are mainly code academies and coworking spaces. I feel if the tech industry ever ever has one of its periodic down turns, then this it could rapidly implode with all these developer services. The reality is about half of the workers entered the tech indu…

These are mainly code academies and coworking spaces

In a gold rush, sell shovels.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#185

Post by jasonlotito »

vonmoltke wrote: post #165
arjie wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably because you want to grow as a professional and it's much easier in an environment where our coworkers also want to grow. If they're content with where they are, there are numerous problems: • as the business case becomes more complex, they won't adapt • as you grow and progress, you'll be promoted and they won't. No one wants to work in an atmosphere of resentment. • you want to learn from your coworkers whi…

Growing as a professional requires some combination of drive, ambition, and work ethic. Interest in the job may make those things easier to find, but it is not a primary driver.

> Growing as a professional requires some combination of drive, ambition, and work ethic.

People usually call those types of qualities "passion," "love of job," or "interest."

You keep trying to work around definitions to suit your narrative when people are just trying to have an honest conversation. You are shoving intent into the OPs post that isn't there. Simply put, what they are saying is that those from bootcamps are there doing the what they think is the bare minimum in order to keep getting a paycheck at that moment.

You might think, "Hey, just raise the minimum and they'll raise with it, it's your fault for having low expectations!" However, when those expectations are raised, you rail against them. You can't have it both ways.

You can't argue for someone lacking drive, ambition, and work ethic, and at the same time bemoan people for demanding that.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#186

Post by lr4444lr »

Alacart wrote: post #80

Who gives a shit where or how you learned to code. What a stupid and indirect way to filter candidates. Just show me what you've done. Send me repo links, production code, or even just the end result with some sort of proof that you actually built it. That's the best part about any craft - practicing or building something creates tangible results. If you don't already have a portfolio, get to work on that before you…

How do you know how much of the work person has actually done the work in the repo rather than fork and change, or even recommitting the files, copy-pasta, etc.?

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#187

Post by Method-X »

Endy wrote: post #120
Method-X wrote: post #23

Most coding bootcamps are a complete waste of money. Ever since I launched https://edabit.com , I've noticed a ton of traffic coming from these bootcamps and I'm not sure what to think of it. On the one hand, I like the free promotion but on the other, I can't help but feel as though these people are getting ripped off (considering they can access the site for free).

Apologies for (slightly) off-topic, but I have a question about edabit. How much of a beginner can a user be and still get value rather than frustration from time spent on the site? I've been wanting to learn some real modern programming beyond HTML/CSS & some JavaScript for aeons, would your site be the place to do it if that's my current base?

Sounds like you're my ideal user. I created Edabit out of frustration with codecademy and other sites like it. They're essentially interactive books (poor ones in my opinion). With Edabit, I structured it to simulate how people naturally learn to code "in the wild" and added simple game mechanics. The challenges can be sorted in order of difficulty (start on easy and progress to hard), each challenge has relevant learning resources and a discussion area for questions. Do a challenge every day and you'll progress very fast.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#188

Post by brooklyn_ashey »

vonmoltke wrote: post #124
phatbyte wrote: post #117

As someone who interviewed dozens of bootcampers I can give some insight. 1) Most of the bootcamps teach the basic of front-end, and a lot of them, teach by doing without explaining a lot of basic concepts. They are basically money grabbers and throw these people out of the door as fast as possible to get their money back. 2) A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job. Sorry, but it's tru…

> A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job. Who cares? Can they do the job or not? Do they have the work ethic and professionalism to continue to do so? The vast majority of people, including those who excel at their respective fields, don't love their jobs. This industry needs to stop using "passion" as a lazy signal for work ethic. > The most boring developers I work with, the the one…

Thank you for mentioning this "passion" problem we have. I did a count once, after I nearly became apoplectic after reading yet another job ad that looked for a "passionate" programmer.I counted the number of times Passion was mentioned in job ads for programmers on Find Bacon in NYC. I compared it to the number of times New York itself (where these jobs actually were) was mentioned- and whoo boy! It was something like 4 times as many mentions of the word passion. Wtf does that even mean? That someone foregoes all else like a priest while they code up liked lusts for your company? I worked in the fine arts before, and no one mentions passion... ever. It kind of goes without saying that you have a work ethic if you can play your instrument at a professional level. We all understand the effort that requires. This love of the word passion would be a red flag for me, if it were not like the word "like" used to be for tweens. I sure wish we could all take a break from it and put some actual psiion into understanding what we actually need from employees. The usebof this word speaks to a need to hire young people who have not yet learned their worth and to set boundaries. It is like the hiring equivalent of a middle aged Humbert Humbert trying to lure a sweet young thing with a copy of Rilke's Letters to a Young Poet. Cannwe all please agree to a break from this word?

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#189

Post by Method-X »

zbtaylor1 wrote: post #123
Method-X wrote: post #23

Most coding bootcamps are a complete waste of money. Ever since I launched https://edabit.com , I've noticed a ton of traffic coming from these bootcamps and I'm not sure what to think of it. On the one hand, I like the free promotion but on the other, I can't help but feel as though these people are getting ripped off (considering they can access the site for free).

Is there some affiliation between this and the Zurb foundation? That yeti looks familiar...

Nope, but you're right! Both monsters with horns and geek glasses.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#190

Post by alistproducer2 »

I've always had a problem with the phrase "learn to code." It assumes just being able to encode a thought in a programming language is good enough. It isn't. Having a thought worth encoding is what separates "super junior" devs from ones who actually know what they're doing. Being able to formulate worthwhile, efficient solution to problems takes more than 12 weeks to learn. There's no substitute for time and experience. One of the reasons traditional college works well is that it forces you to spend a long period (~4 years) immersed in the discipline: thinking and reasoning about computer problems. Do you come away from that with everything you'll need to make production software? No. That still necessitates experience. You will, however, be able to learn from that experience more efficiently because you've got the fundamentals.

I work at a large company that absorbs tons of MIS/CIS grads. The non-CS grads that excel are the ones that are constantly hungry to teach themselves new things but for the most part they suck compared to the CS people. I can only imagine how much worse these bootcamp folks must be.

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