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WA, NY and CA Governors Announce Formation of United States Climate Alliance

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Re: WA, NY and CA Governors Announce Formation of United States Climate Alliance

#181

Post by lazzlazzlazz »

azernik wrote: post #161
toisanji wrote: post #90

I would read the full speech from Trump, he makes some good points, although im sure some of it is false and not sure how it compares to other factors. http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/01/politics/trump-paris-agreement... "For example, under the agreement, China will be able to increase these emissions by a staggering number of years -- 13. They can do whatever they want for 13 years. Not us. India makes its participation…

1. Poor countries are allowed to increase their carbon emissions because their current emissions are already low per person, and requiring then to lower emissions would basically be telling then they're not allowed to become developed countries. They will not sign on. 2. We're paying poor countries to mitigate these effects, by subsidizing their use of cleaner energy to industrialize. And to compensate them, since th…

If these are the best replies to Trump's remarks, I very sadly must agree with Trump. Extremely disappointing.

Re: WA, NY and CA Governors Announce Formation of United States Climate Alliance

#182

Post by peteretep »

epistasis wrote: post #51
oh_sigh wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment was reasonable until you called him "commander in shit-the-bed". I'd suggest holding back on that kind of rhetoric if you want people to consider your opinion.

It's unfortunate that you're downvoted. Civility is of the utmost importance, especially when the command in chief has so little of it, publicly. It's a way to build bridges, and when we're talking about states separating, that's especially important.

    > Civility is of the utmost importance
Bullshit.

Re: WA, NY and CA Governors Announce Formation of United States Climate Alliance

#183

Post by jhall1468 »

babyrainbow wrote: post #117
toisanji wrote: post #90

I would read the full speech from Trump, he makes some good points, although im sure some of it is false and not sure how it compares to other factors. http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/01/politics/trump-paris-agreement... "For example, under the agreement, China will be able to increase these emissions by a staggering number of years -- 13. They can do whatever they want for 13 years. Not us. India makes its participation…

Really wish this was at the top, instead of a comment that simply calls the president "shit-the-bed" Trump. It is scary how people, even on HN, go on a hating spree with out actually looking into these details. If you go on reddit, you see the same thing, but multiplied 10x. It is a sickening display of how even "smart" communities, like HIN can harbour stupid behaviors and beliefs as long as the majority shares it..…

Except this is misleading because those points would only be good if they didn't have a very clear reason, which the top reply to this comment lays out very well.

Re: WA, NY and CA Governors Announce Formation of United States Climate Alliance

#184

Post by zaksoup »

trendia wrote: post #104
zaksoup wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Red states have lower GDP, higher poverty, lower education, and are largely subsidized by blue states through federal grants. I am not implying causation and there are other interesting facts (lower cost of living relative to wages in red states) but as it stands now if blue and red split it doesn't seem like it's all that controversial to imply red would suffer. A little bit of googling turns up many interesting art…

Of course, I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the article, but it's always funny when someone posts an article they didn't read. It directly contradicts what you're claiming: > The red states aren't in fact poorer than the blue states. They're richer: that's why they vote more conservative and more right wing. The article argues that people who make less move to areas with lower costs of living, because they have m…

I read the article. I don't think you read my comment. I posted the article to cite a positive interpretation of the statistics I claimed.

I made no claims about which policies were better or worse. If you have issues with the one claim I did make, that the implication that red states would fare poorly without blue states is not farfetched, I do not believe you have adequately articulated them.

From the article:

> Red state economies based on energy extraction, agriculture and suburban sprawl may have lower wages, higher poverty rates and lower levels of education on average than those of blue states

Re: WA, NY and CA Governors Announce Formation of United States Climate Alliance

#185

Post by yostrovs »

kuschku wrote: post #150
toisanji wrote: post #90

I would read the full speech from Trump, he makes some good points, although im sure some of it is false and not sure how it compares to other factors. http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/01/politics/trump-paris-agreement... "For example, under the agreement, China will be able to increase these emissions by a staggering number of years -- 13. They can do whatever they want for 13 years. Not us. India makes its participation…

EDIT: I'll just quote this here: > The fact that the agreement only commits governments to keeping warming below an increase of 2 degrees, rather than a much safer firm target of 1.5 degrees, was lobbied for and won by the United States. > The fact that the agreement left it to individual nations to determine how much they were willing to do to reach that temperature target, allowing them to come to Paris with commit…

The amount of CO2 produced by China in a year dwarfs the first 100 years of the industrial revolution's output.

Re: WA, NY and CA Governors Announce Formation of United States Climate Alliance

#186

Post by cderwin »

stevenleeg wrote: post #131
xienze wrote: post #107

One thing I never see addressed with all the talk about climate change: Let's say we managed to cease our CO2 production, even reverse the current man-made warming trend (save me the "impossible hypothetical scenario" talk, substitute in whatever values of "cease" we would have accomplished with the Paris Agreement, whatever). Eventually, the earth is going to warm significantly without the aid of mankind. What are w…

> Eventually, the earth is going to warm significantly without the aid of mankind What exactly are you referring to here? The sun expanding and becoming hotter as it ages? If so we're talking about the timeline of a few billion years. Climate change is something that has already begun to affect us and will continue to worsen over the course of the next few decades, which makes this issue far more pressing than whatev…

No, he or she was just observing that natural warming/cooling moves pretty randomly, and even if we can null out the human effect on it, we need to be able to withstand a dramatic change in global temperature.

Re: WA, NY and CA Governors Announce Formation of United States Climate Alliance

#187

Post by acchow »

olewhalehunter wrote: post #72
erik-g wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because states can't leave the Union.

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among..."

"... it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

I'm not sure why you're being downvoted.

Re: WA, NY and CA Governors Announce Formation of United States Climate Alliance

#188

Post by swampthing »

xienze wrote: post #162
joshualross wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A couple thoughts - what is equally? The US is the historically the largest contributor of greenhouse gases by a wide margin[1]. And last I checked, a vast majority of people support the agreement[2], including half of trump supporters. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/apr/21/countrie... [2] http://climatecommunication.yale.edu/publications/paris_agre...

> The US is the historically the largest contributor of greenhouse gases by a wide margin Sure, but guess what: China is right behind us. History means squat. They're a major polluter _right now_. Why are they not held to the same standard we are?

They could ask the same question - why is the US allowed to have higher per-capita emissions?

Re: WA, NY and CA Governors Announce Formation of United States Climate Alliance

#189

Post by alpha_squared »

lazzlazzlazz wrote: post #181
azernik wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Poor countries are allowed to increase their carbon emissions because their current emissions are already low per person, and requiring then to lower emissions would basically be telling then they're not allowed to become developed countries. They will not sign on. 2. We're paying poor countries to mitigate these effects, by subsidizing their use of cleaner energy to industrialize. And to compensate them, since th…

If these are the best replies to Trump's remarks, I very sadly must agree with Trump. Extremely disappointing.

What makes these points disappointing?

Re: WA, NY and CA Governors Announce Formation of United States Climate Alliance

#190

Post by m_mueller »

toisanji wrote: post #90

I would read the full speech from Trump, he makes some good points, although im sure some of it is false and not sure how it compares to other factors. http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/01/politics/trump-paris-agreement... "For example, under the agreement, China will be able to increase these emissions by a staggering number of years -- 13. They can do whatever they want for 13 years. Not us. India makes its participation…

The one crucial point that IMO is very false: That the US is "already ahead". The US produces around 2-2.5x the CO2 per capita compared to EU and China (which interestingly are similar now after China's economic rise).

Coal isn't really relevant. What's most relevant is the way you do housing and living: Poorly isolated homes spread across the countr, far from work and cultural centers, with its inhabitants insiting on having 20C in summer and 23C in winter and driving huge trucks to work alone.

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