FBI director Comey backs new Feinstein push for decrypt bill • Hacker News Board

Re: FBI director Comey backs new Feinstein push for decrypt bill

#181

Post by grandalf » Thu, May 04, 2017, 1:33 PM UTC

mlindner wrote: post #105

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Members of our government are so indoctrinated about stopping "terrorism" that they have lost all sense of perspective. In this case, it might be better to assume malice rather than incompetence. In the 1950's it was s/terrorist/communist/, but it was a remarkably effective political tool. We might be in the same situation. But this time, our fates are all linked. Once shipping backdoors becomes mainstream, it might…

Most people I've met who work in security at large companies would rather lose their job than participate in the erasure of security for all. Apple showed this pretty obviously, but I think many companies would have most of their software engineers quit before accepting such a request, even if it was a direct order. The government cannot order you personally to write software, that's blatant first amendment violation…

> Most people I've met who work in security at large companies would rather lose their job than participate in the erasure of security for all.

While I think (and hope) this is correct, I'm not sure it matters.

For example, it would not be necessary for most of the engineers to be aware of a backdoor or other known vulnerability. There have been examples from open source crypto where malicious code has weakened it significantly and still nobody noticed.

There's also the very real possibility of baking the backdoor/vulnerability into a custom ASIC design. Chances are the government has a lot of expertise in this area and could simply tell Apple that it would provide one of the parts for all iPhones and the part would behave to spec (but would contain other undocumented behavior).

I think it's also realistic that other governments do this. Unless a chip is manufactured using the latest microprocessor-level miniaturization, it could contain all sorts of undocumented circuitry. I'm not sure about the economics of this sort of attack, but surely it makes sense once in a while.

Re: FBI director Comey backs new Feinstein push for decrypt bill

#182

Post by QuantumGravy » Thu, May 04, 2017, 1:39 PM UTC

mlindner wrote: post #105

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Members of our government are so indoctrinated about stopping "terrorism" that they have lost all sense of perspective. In this case, it might be better to assume malice rather than incompetence. In the 1950's it was s/terrorist/communist/, but it was a remarkably effective political tool. We might be in the same situation. But this time, our fates are all linked. Once shipping backdoors becomes mainstream, it might…

Most people I've met who work in security at large companies would rather lose their job than participate in the erasure of security for all. Apple showed this pretty obviously, but I think many companies would have most of their software engineers quit before accepting such a request, even if it was a direct order. The government cannot order you personally to write software, that's blatant first amendment violation…

They can take the high road because they currently have money and social status to leverage. If they were easily replaceable and earning an average middle-class income, the first amendment wouldn't mean crap next to their continued employment. That could actually be a novel argument against anything that would suppress their wages and salaries; their paycheck may be the last line of defense against a dystopian future.

Re: FBI director Comey backs new Feinstein push for decrypt bill

#183

Post by cprayingmantis » Thu, May 04, 2017, 1:39 PM UTC

If you're wondering how it got to this point I'd like to remind you that you (If you live in the US) don't own this country. The people in charge don't care about you. They care about money, power, and stability of their system. It's hopeless to resist because they own your home, your bank account, and all your money. The only way we'll ever change it is getting scientists, nerds, and engineers into congress. I don't know how we'll do it but we have to do it to ensure freedom for everyone in the USA.

Re: FBI director Comey backs new Feinstein push for decrypt bill

#184

Post by grandalf » Thu, May 04, 2017, 1:54 PM UTC

Arnt wrote: post #172

grandalf wrote: post #30

From his perspective as the head of the FBI whose job it is to achieve outcomes within the law, of course Comey advocates encryption backdoors. He would likely also advocate allowing the FBI to suspend the bill of rights for any suspect during the duration of an investigation, and he'd quite likely prefer that the FBI be legally allowed to torture suspects if extreme techniques were viewed as likely to result in usef…

Comey is not just someone with a job at a particular organisation, he's also a servant of the state, and he is a citizen. Any servant of the state has a duty to the constitution. His job description comes second (or later). It's not at all natural that he should argue for hollowing out the constitution, or favour the needs of own organisation over the rest of the state or over the entire society.

> It's not at all natural that he should argue for hollowing out the constitution, or favour the needs of own organisation over the rest of the state or over the entire society.

Very true. But I think it's safe to assume that no good, just individual would end up in the role of Director of an intelligence service. Who really aspires to be the leader of a team of secret police?

There are some professions that are not strictly speaking unethical, but that tend to attract an ilk of people who are unconcerned with ethics. Used car salespeople, brothel owners, chiefs of secret police forces, people hired to do telephone cold calls to sell shady investments to the elderly, etc.

If Comey is viewed in this light, we can see that he is acting predictably. Sadly, many people have the mistaken idea that people who dress in nice suits and wear medals and get appointed by presidents somehow deserve the benefit of the doubt. They do not.

Re: FBI director Comey backs new Feinstein push for decrypt bill

#185

Post by grandalf » Thu, May 04, 2017, 1:57 PM UTC

AsyncAwait wrote: post #179

bogositosius wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He says he doesn't want a backdoor and then spends all his time asking for one.

He is playing the word game, what a technical person might call a "backdoor" he will call a "front-door" or something else, so there's technically not a "backdoor" and he technically didn't lie, even if he wants what many of us geeks would indeed call a "backdoor". It's sort of how the NSA redefines the dictionary meaning of common sense words to mean something else, (for example something like: "surveillance" means…

> He is playing the word game

That's the worst thing about Comey. He is totally comfortable and unabashed about going in front of the American people and playing a word game.

Re: FBI director Comey backs new Feinstein push for decrypt bill

#186

Post by grandalf » Thu, May 04, 2017, 2:02 PM UTC

cryptarch wrote: post #157

grandalf wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We should try to think of some concrete steps to resist this. It feels like we have to try, since there's so much at stake. Great point. One idea I had recently is to start an organization in the same spirit as Open AI called OpenSurveillance that builds and releases all sorts of useful tools for thwarting surveillance efforts or acting as an adversary to an entity with pervasive surveillance power (generally speak…

Do you think such an organization could exist in the light? I've been considering a comparable project, but more focussed on opsec/infosec in a file sharing context. However, I've felt chilled by the possible legal consequences to me and my family if I enter this arena. Bootstrapping myself to have great opsec seems like a really tough task. I feel like I'd have to repeatedly burn hardware, houses and identities if I…

> Do you think such an organization could exist in the light?

I think it could but it would need good legal support and PR support to prevent its actions from being mischaracterized.

> Bootstrapping myself to have great opsec seems like a really tough task

I think it would be incredibly difficult if not impossible in today's world. So I think that an "in the light" approach is much less vulnerable.

Re: FBI director Comey backs new Feinstein push for decrypt bill

#187

Post by dekhn » Thu, May 04, 2017, 2:03 PM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #113

grandalf wrote: post #30

From his perspective as the head of the FBI whose job it is to achieve outcomes within the law, of course Comey advocates encryption backdoors. He would likely also advocate allowing the FBI to suspend the bill of rights for any suspect during the duration of an investigation, and he'd quite likely prefer that the FBI be legally allowed to torture suspects if extreme techniques were viewed as likely to result in usef…

Comey is a bureaucrat looking for more power to do his job. He's the runny nose. The flu is Feinstein. From the ridiculous controls that treat cold medicine like contraband, the Patriot act, and bullshit like this, the Senator is a wellspring of bad law and disrespect for the American people. Why do Californians keep electing this person?

Because the longer a senator is in power, the more power they get (committee positions), and she's ostensibly a democrat.

Re: FBI director Comey backs new Feinstein push for decrypt bill

#188

Post by jackhack » Thu, May 04, 2017, 2:05 PM UTC

cm2187 wrote: post #149

grandalf wrote: post #30

From his perspective as the head of the FBI whose job it is to achieve outcomes within the law, of course Comey advocates encryption backdoors. He would likely also advocate allowing the FBI to suspend the bill of rights for any suspect during the duration of an investigation, and he'd quite likely prefer that the FBI be legally allowed to torture suspects if extreme techniques were viewed as likely to result in usef…

There are threats against the US that are more than a few crazy people. The rise of Islamism is real. But the reality is that the number of casualties due to terrorism in the US is dwarfed by those of gang or drug violence, even including 9/11 (which is now more than 15y ago...). We do not hear anyone suggesting restricting civil liberties to reduce gang violence. It is kind of a curious massively asymmetrical tolera…

>>We do not hear anyone suggesting restricting civil liberties to reduce gang violence.

We hear about it all the time. It's just so pervasive we no longer see how extreme is the intrusion!

Civil asset forfeiture, stop & frisk, the near endless litany of TSA/Homeland Security abuses, "VIPER" teams hassling Greyhound bus riders, states such as Hawaii where the 2nd Amendment is ignored, the SWAT teams that have taken over every small-town police department, the banking secrecy acts that report you if you move more than $4000 at a time or in an undefined "suspicious" way (also see "structuring"), the aggressive+confrontational transformation of law enforcement into domestic military, the involvement of military at WACO... need I continue?

Re: FBI director Comey backs new Feinstein push for decrypt bill

#189

Post by grandalf » Thu, May 04, 2017, 2:08 PM UTC

throwaway13337 wrote: post #129

twoodfin wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't anyone remember why President Obama appointed a Republican FBI Director in the first place? http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05...

That was a very interesting read. The gist of it is that Comey went to great lengths to make sure warrantless wiretapping wouldn't be considered legal. And when he failed to do so, he resigned. What happened to him since then?

I think he came to the belief that there was legal justification for conducting mass surveillance in secret... in other words that the AG didn't need to sign off on it for it to be an appropriate tool.

If the AG had signed for it, then we'd have probably seen the supreme court weigh in on it. But since he didn't, the program continued behind closed doors and grew massively. I believe now there is a rolling 60 day archive of nearly all worldwide communications and metadata (and longer rolling archives for select subsets). It's incredibly impressive tech but quite scary.

Re: FBI director Comey backs new Feinstein push for decrypt bill

#190

Post by aswanson » Thu, May 04, 2017, 2:19 PM UTC

hyperdunc wrote: post #159

aswanson wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're more likely to die from a lightning bolt than a 'terrorist' attack. You're thousands of times more likely to die from bad driving habits or being overweight, so why is the terrorist bogeyman given so much concern in the political conversation?

Because a lightning bolt is a much more random occurance. It doesn't have agency, an agenda or a trajectory within society. A lightning bolt isn't looking to instigate more lightning bolts. In 10 years time the death stats for lightning bolts will be similar and for road accidents will probably have declined. Which way do you think the terrorists stats will go?

Given the trends and the fact that it's a low probability event, I'd expect it to stay about where it is, about one death per year, or about as much as a chance as I have of getting killed by a piece of furniture: http://uk.businessinsider.com/death-risk-statistics-terroris... http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-terrorism-statistics-every-...