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Monsanto Weed Killer Roundup Faces New Doubts on Safety in Unsealed Documents

nytimes.com

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Re: Monsanto Weed Killer Roundup Faces New Doubts on Safety in Unsealed Documents

#181

Post by Noseshine »

sametmax wrote: post #130
gadders wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't trust charities either. They have a vested interest in maintaining their world view in spite of contrary evidence. For instance, the banning of DDT in Africa despite the fact that using it to control malaria saves lives.

I actually have very little faith in charities. I did missions for find, the earth institute, the gates foundation, MVP and WHO. Money is wasted/stolen, politics everywhere, ego, incompetence... It's business as usual, except the people I worked with a the bottom of the pyramid were awesome.

There is nothing special about charities. You describe most human organizations. Whose nature also depends on their environment - I posit that in a less cut-throat world humans and their organizations would be less cut-throat too. I also don't believe that the way it is is "inevitable" and/or "human nature" (http://nautil.us/issue/46/balance/survival-of-the-friendlies...).

Think about this: At least in the western world we have achieved wealth and productivity where the word "unimaginable" from a point of view of even 500 years ago would be a gross understatement. And yet, to many people daily life still feels full of threats, while many work what they themselves recognize are meaningless jobs (see the popular Dilbert cartoons). It doesn't make sense, it is artificial. It doesn't need to be this way. We force people - and organizations - to live in a "stress and survival mode" that is completely unnecessary.

Re: Monsanto Weed Killer Roundup Faces New Doubts on Safety in Unsealed Documents

#182

Post by saiya-jin »

yodsanklai wrote: post #85
djsumdog wrote: post #27

It's difficult to judge long term toxicity in humans. You don't immediately keel over and die when you smoke a cigarette, and the correlation between lung cancer and cigarettes needs a fully understandable cause. That's how the industry slipped by for years. Likewise, most European countries do not fluoridate their water and the correlation doesn't seem to show any significant difference in dental health. The anti-fl…

> Likewise, most European countries do not fluoridate their water and the correlation doesn't seem to show any significant difference in dental health I've never researched this so it may be confirmation bias, but my experience living in Europe and the US is that Americans have better looking teeth.

that's just higher emphasis on formal appearance as necessary part of 'success'. teeth are very visible in communication. that's it.

Re: Monsanto Weed Killer Roundup Faces New Doubts on Safety in Unsealed Documents

#183

Post by enimodas »

ryanalam wrote: post #178

In the US, the alternative to this would be to consume organic produce. However, most people don't realize that organic produce still uses plenty of, if not more pesticides than traditional production methods; they just use organic pesticides. I wonder which is worse: highly mechanized, high efficiency, and low volume synthetic pesticides in traditional production methods - or low efficiency, high volume natural pest…

Organic isn't all that either, for example https://www.facebook.com/newscientist/videos/101548759767395...

Re: Monsanto Weed Killer Roundup Faces New Doubts on Safety in Unsealed Documents

#184

Post by Blahah »

ryanalam wrote: post #178

In the US, the alternative to this would be to consume organic produce. However, most people don't realize that organic produce still uses plenty of, if not more pesticides than traditional production methods; they just use organic pesticides. I wonder which is worse: highly mechanized, high efficiency, and low volume synthetic pesticides in traditional production methods - or low efficiency, high volume natural pest…

Organic makes a totally unscientific distinction between synthetic and naturally-occurring substances. It's also a huge, and hugely profitable industry that lobbies effectively to prevent research funding into the safety of the substances it allows, and essentially exploits food privilege and scientific illiteracy.

Organic-permitted pesticides tend to be massively over-applied, and can be unbelievably toxic to a degree that would never be allowed for modern synthetic pesticides. Rotenone for example is horrenously toxic to aquatic life, but permitted in organic agriculture with litte regard for the ecological outcomes. Simple copper and sulphur compounds that are broadly toxic are permitted as fungicides in organic agriculture, but can also persist for a long time in the environment and cause serious ecological damage.

I'd take roundup over anything organic any day.

Re: Monsanto Weed Killer Roundup Faces New Doubts on Safety in Unsealed Documents

#185

Post by 0xfeba »

shriphani wrote: post #82
alevskaya wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many conflicts of interest in the world - organic farming is an industry too. e.g. at least one of those 14 experts is an active member of the organic industry and has long had a beef with the GMO industry: https://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/glp-facts/charles-ben... As to the science: the original highly-questionable IARC determination has since been contested by both the European Chemical Agency and th…

As Nicholas Taleb put it - stuff that is natural is time-tested. Food we've grown + consumed has a multi-millennium history of being safe to consume. The burden of proof is on the synthetic. And health issues can materialize with a time gap of a decade or so - essentially you can ruin a couple of generations with a mistake you didn't catch in time. It doesn't help when those who have to prove their validity have to r…

> Food we've grown + consumed has a multi-millennium history of being safe

The food we consume now has little resemblance past a visual one (and even not that in some cases), to food of the past.

Time-tested? Only in the past 60 years or so have we actually been able to begin to understand the effects of any food, natural or GMO. That our ancestors didn't keel over immediately after consuming these "same" foods does not mean they are anymore "safe to consume" than GMO foods.

Re: Monsanto Weed Killer Roundup Faces New Doubts on Safety in Unsealed Documents

#186

Post by fil_a_del_fee_a »

finid wrote: post #23

“We would be keeping the cost down by us doing the writing and they would just edit & sign their names so to speak,” Mr. Heydens wrote, citing a previous instance in which he said the company had done this. Science for sale. Shouldn't that Mr. Rowland guy be in jail?

I was going to post this exact same quote. It is in my clipboard.

Controversial note: When politicians talk about defunding the EPA, people get upset. When the EPA pulls stunts like this, it makes you question their purpose. Seriously, why have regulators that "tip off" the very companies that they are supposed to be regulating?

Re: Monsanto Weed Killer Roundup Faces New Doubts on Safety in Unsealed Documents

#187

Post by sametmax »

jpttsn wrote: post #158
kamih wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No tinfoil required, there are now companies you can pay that will "manage" social network comment sections in your favor.

There are also private detectives for hire. Even so, you individually are probably not being stalked. I'd hold on to the tinfoil just in case.

Well, tinfoil new spring collection aside, you can't really compare:

- the value of one average joe data;

- against the value of a well orchestrated PR campaign on a site that experts, investors and intellectuals use as an information hub.

If you are skilled enough to maintain a good reputation of a client on HN, this is quite a good thing to manage IMO.

And here I am, posting comments for upvotes while maybe I could pay for it. I should step up my game.

Re: Monsanto Weed Killer Roundup Faces New Doubts on Safety in Unsealed Documents

#188

Post by josefresco »

ryanalam wrote: post #178

In the US, the alternative to this would be to consume organic produce. However, most people don't realize that organic produce still uses plenty of, if not more pesticides than traditional production methods; they just use organic pesticides. I wonder which is worse: highly mechanized, high efficiency, and low volume synthetic pesticides in traditional production methods - or low efficiency, high volume natural pest…

Where's your source that indicates organic pesticides are "low efficiency, high volume" Would love to read more about this as it may effect my purchasing decisions.

Also this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glyphosate#Conyza

Which seemingly contradicts the "high efficiency" claim (at least moving forward)

Re: Monsanto Weed Killer Roundup Faces New Doubts on Safety in Unsealed Documents

#189

Post by splawn »

adsfqwop wrote: post #137
alevskaya wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not asking you to believe anything from Monsanto. There is a vast field of researchers that care deeply about what causes cancer and what can be done to prevent and treat it. Most of us aren't for sale. There are sensitive, objective and simple tests for determining whether or not a compound causes genetic mutations in cells (Ames test). There are tests for whether or not a compound induces chromosome abnormaliti…

You fail to account for the possibility of unknown unknowns, and again you're displaying biased cognitive dissonance. You can't determine generational toxicity from LD50 profiles. You are simplifying everything way too much. Glyphosate is an analog to glycine. You know, the building blocks for proteins. DuPont did a study in 2007 that shows glyphosate is integrating in protein structures. Does that not worry you? Gly…

>You fail to account for the possibility of unknown unknowns

This sounds reasonable. /s

Do you have an example of anything that accounts for the possibility of unknown unknowns? My guess is if you do, then all it will take to "debunk" it is someone with a bigger imagination.

EDIT: bad comma

Re: Monsanto Weed Killer Roundup Faces New Doubts on Safety in Unsealed Documents

#190

Post by enibundo »

If you really are concerned about this : buy organic.

If organic food gets more interest, more and more people will start growing it, and more and more people will have access to good healthy food.

These poisons wouldn't be abused if they wouldn't be profitable...

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