VPNs are not the solution to a policy problem • Hacker News Board

Re: VPNs are not the solution to a policy problem

#181

Post by spangry » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 1:43 PM UTC

jfoutz wrote: post #89

confounded wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those people will have VPNs and other security measures. This is about exploiting ordinary people to widen the power differential between the two.

I think you overestimate the average politician. They may not bother with the internet. I'm confident Senator Lamar does not. But really, i don't think it would take very long to figure out where he and his staff in DC and in Tennessee live. I don't know what the data purchase rates are, so that could be expensive. But buy the data for a bunch of neighborhoods. Perhaps 50,000 people. watch the data for a while, query…

I've always liked the idea of using the copious public video of these politicians to train voice and face recognition NNs, specifically targeting anti-privacy politicians. Maybe even sell pre-made raspberry pis with all of this stuff preloaded for journalists to scatter around places that politicians congregate.

I think it's only fair that these folks get to be the first ones to live in the kind of world they are creating. And none of them should have a problem with any of this, because I'm certain none of them ever do anything wrong and therefore have nothing to hide.

Re: VPNs are not the solution to a policy problem

#182

Post by frebord » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 1:51 PM UTC

This whole damn thing spawns from the lack of competition with ISPs. If consumers had more than 1 or 2 options, we could choose with our money. I don't think the solution is to regulate the industry, but our privacy should certainly be protected by our fucking useless government.

Re: VPNs are not the solution to a policy problem

#183

Post by pythonaut_16 » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 2:00 PM UTC

ryanmarsh wrote: post #29

Goopplesoft wrote: post #18

A heads up: theres a really nice project called Streisand[1] which provides a multi-protocol VPN with very little effort. You can launch one on a cheap cloud provider (like DO, if their policy allows). [1] https://github.com/jlund/streisand

I've had a few problems getting it running on AWS but setup was a breeze on GCE. So far it's been cheaper (and safer) than most VPN providers I've seen. YMMV

Can you give a rough estimate of your monthly usage and the price on GCE?

I've been looking at AWS and GCE but I'm having a hard time figuring out the actual bandwidth costs.

Re: VPNs are not the solution to a policy problem

#184

Post by drzaiusapelord » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 2:06 PM UTC

Goopplesoft wrote: post #18

A heads up: theres a really nice project called Streisand[1] which provides a multi-protocol VPN with very little effort. You can launch one on a cheap cloud provider (like DO, if their policy allows). [1] https://github.com/jlund/streisand

Why not run a utility that visits random websites to drown the signal from the noise? Imagine this thing running 24/7 and visiting all sorts of sites, including all sorts of porn and fetish sites or whatever is taboo in your culture. Now its impossible to see what I'm actually visiting and you'd be foolish to not realize that these are generated url visits. A bit like how people used to copy and paste 'NSA keywords' into their emails and web postings.

Not sure why anyone isn't proposing this. Far better than dealing with the hassle and performance issues with a VPN. Want my browsing data? Fine, how's 1 million URLs a day grab you?

Re: VPNs are not the solution to a policy problem

#185

Post by erelde » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 2:09 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #176

shwouchk wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many don't consider this to be a fundamental right. Is that why everyone agrees that the constitution protects this right in the physical domain?

In physical world we differentiate between public and private spaces, with different expectations of privacy in each of them. There's a debate to be had about appropriate demarkations on the Internet.

Where I walk and what I do on the street is private even though it's in a public space (exceptions apply). Similarly what I do and where I go on the internet is private even though it is a public space (exceptions apply).

If someone follows me in the street for hours (days, weeks, life) and note everything that I do, I'd be right to call that a violation of my privacy ?

Re: VPNs are not the solution to a policy problem

#186

Post by pythonaut_16 » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 2:15 PM UTC

herbst wrote: post #169

After reading digital ocean the 10th time on here. What makes people think that using a american company that complies with american laws and regularly gives out data is a much better option than renting a VPN in a country that still has privacy in place?

In this case people are talking about avoiding ISP tracking, not evading law enforcement and government entities.

Re: VPNs are not the solution to a policy problem

#187

Post by zeveb » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 2:29 PM UTC

Pharylon wrote: post #162

igk wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The second school of thought is individual responsibility. Users should take steps to protect their own privacy on a case-by-case basis, in the same way they look after their own home security or personal safety. I think this is a bullshit argument. Nobody looks after their home security or personal security the way we expect users to be careful of their privacy, nor do we accept the amount of intrusions into our h…

Agreed. Parent's analogy only works in a world where breaking and entering was legal, and it was everyone's personal responsibility to defend their home.

We live in a world where breaking and entering is possible, and the police may only come after the fact, and might not come at all — it is everyone's personal responsibility to defend his home. Likewise, we live in a world where violating one's privacy is possible, which means it is probable, and thus it is everyone's personal responsibility to defend his privacy.

Re: VPNs are not the solution to a policy problem

#188

Post by Bartweiss » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 2:35 PM UTC

FridgeSeal wrote: post #20

No, they're not. The solution is getting strong, enforced laws that protect our privacy and punish those who break them. But for the moment, with advertisers viewing themselves as gods gift to the internet who think that all your information belongs to them simply by virtue of existing, and who will go to great lengths to acquire and store it all (for perpetuity), a solution is needed, and part of that is VPN's.

Data you release can never be recovered. Even if we were to chuck out the entire House and reverse this change in 2018, VPNs would still be a key part of the solution. It would only take one medical search sold to insurers (as a random example) to seriously affect you, so I agree that downplaying technical defenses is unreasonable.

Re: VPNs are not the solution to a policy problem

#189

Post by Bartweiss » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 2:39 PM UTC

erentz wrote: post #47

pier25 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because ISPs can't read your traffic

But now the VPN provider can just track you and sell all your browsing history instead of the ISP, so how is this better?

I've lived places where my only ISP choice was Comcast. I trust them as little as the worst VPNs, and having a choice of VPN lets you choose one which is trustworthy and in a convenient jurisdiction. That matters some in the States (no NSL to Canada, for instance) and a great deal in China or other countries.

Re: VPNs are not the solution to a policy problem

#190

Post by Bartweiss » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 2:43 PM UTC

chatmasta wrote: post #148

dfc wrote: post #122

It's strange to see the evolution of the technology versus policy debate. We started out with "the Internet views censorship as damage and routes around it." A little later we had Lessig saying "code is law." And now the refrain is "VPNs are not the solution to a policy problem." I miss the idealism and optimism of the past. The only hopeful thing I can find in the new "quote" is that it seems that the tech world is…

So true and I could not agree more. When did technical problems start requiring political solutions? I think it's a Trojan horse from politicians to start legislating where nobody needs legislation. The net will still route around censorship, but it's becoming increasingly harder in a world where a high percentage of global bandwidth transits through a small number of large deployments by centralized corporations. Th…

> When did technical problems start requiring political solutions?

When the technical solutions became criminalized. End-to-end encryption is only now becoming common, and English MPs are already talking eagerly about outlawing it. The need for political fights isn't exactly new - think of the Clipper chip in the 90s - but it hasn't abated either.

I see lots of suggestions that we can solve this with keeping tech ahead of law, but I don't think that's a realistic answer. People have tried that in banking and finance and a lot of other domains, and the result is that you eventually get stuck with whitelists (only access the internet these 3 ways) or intent criminalization (banning access the government can't see). You have to win some political fights, if only to carve out space for the technical solutions.