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Both geniuses and madmen pay attention to what others ignore

nautil.us

181–190 of 208 posts

Re: Both geniuses and madmen pay attention to what others ignore

#181
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glad you wrote this. I was often wondering whether it is possible to communicate with a psychopath. Communication requires trust, i.e. that the person you are speaking with isn't lying. With non-psychopaths this is achieved by the complex play of empathy, guilt etc. However, given that psychopaths lack these feeling the mechanism just doesn't work. It's an epistemic and, actually, quite terrifying problem: You have t…

Yea that's a great point. I think you can communicate with high functioning sociopaths as long as your goals align. Note that your goals are by default subordinate to mine but that sometimes near term ones can be the same. It's generally the case that it's better to build a coalition of people who have shared goals than just manipulate people into doing what you want. If your goals are misaligned, you'll likely come…

Psychthowaway>> It's generally the case that it's better to build a coalition of people who have shared goals than just manipulate people into doing what you want.

Wouldn't the goal of most "high functioning" sociopaths be near identical i.e: health, happiness and survival? (ofcourse one can debate on how that is to be achieved, but that's another debate)

Anyway, I can identify with a lot of what you put in your parent post. There appears to be a key difference in the way I'm a sociopath. I seem to have became one. For example for me death is an anticipated event that will happen to everyone. I have probably "greaved" over the death of most people who are close to me and are now alive so that when it actually happens it does not catch me off guard. So now I have to feign some grief when it actually happens, so that I do not come across as a sociopath.

And on the topic of death - I have done my own little bit, since I do not think it is entirely inevitable. Being a "sociopath" and having a high degree of objectivity go hand in hand.

Re: Both geniuses and madmen pay attention to what others ignore

#182
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When my GF tells me I'm really clever I just say "not really, I have a good memory and read a lot." I'm not proud of my intelligence, why would I be? (much of it) is determined by genetics and the environment you grew up in and I had little control over either of those. I also point out she is the one who speaks 3 languages fluently, has a degree in finance and qualified as a shipbroker, I just explain things really…

How did you two meet? At work?

We met online, her profile and interests where a mirror image of mine, same films, same music, same outlook even the same books.

The only disagreement was over whether 2001 or Bladerunner should hold the top spot on best films, I maintain 2001, she maintains Bladerunner.

Re: Both geniuses and madmen pay attention to what others ignore

#183

As much as some of us might feel some misguided excitement over the idea of being some kind of tech savvy Hannibal Lecter, the reality is that there is no real correlation between psychopathy and intelligence (perhaps even a negative correlation.) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16178679 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23551975 http://www.soc.iastate.edu/staff/delisi/Hannibal%20Lecter%20... In other words, ps…

This whole line of reasoning that Psychopath = Super Intelligence Serial Killer is misguided. All of the studies to date have used the criminal population as the sole source of research for psychopathy - as your reference does. The point I was making with my lengthy post is that, in fact, genius level psychopaths don't become murderers; they become Presidents, Dictators and Hedge Fund managers.

Because the set of criminals used in the research are confirmed psychopaths, so it's the only way to conduct such a study. You cannot round up Hedge Fund managers for such a study. But this also makes what you're saying somewhat non-falsifiable. Highly successful people basically are extremely driven and ambitious, and they work all the time. (I'm assuming you relate to this.) But there is no evidence (as far as I know) correlating tendencies to be extremely ambitious, and psychopathic tendencies such as inability to feel empathy. Although, obviously, tendencies associated with both things may overlap, since a very ambitious person is more likely to appear very selfish to an outside observer.

Also, many actual confirmed geniuses like Einstein, Alan Turing, etc. clearly were simply obsessed (which is really just a more negative way of saying "very enthusiastic") about their work - they didn't necessarily care to become powerful men (Einstein famously turned down the Presidency of Israel because it was boring to him). These people were just really, really interested in the problems they were working on. This seems to intersect better with something like OCD rather than psychopathy - and indeed, there are of course many anecdotes around Princeton University of Einstein exhibiting OCD tendencies.

Re: Both geniuses and madmen pay attention to what others ignore

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You indeed can't average a bunch of viewpoints and get anything good out of it. That's why Alan Kay usually has that vector space example where "different viewpoint" means giving yourself a vector out of the existing "plane of viewpoints".

I think averaging over all such vectors out of the usual plane would have similar value.

Not if they're all in the normal direction.

Re: Both geniuses and madmen pay attention to what others ignore

#186
post #20

Every time I read one of these articles about genius and madness, I become smug for a little while, then I get depressed because I realize that I haven't accomplished anything noteworthy, then I'm mildly reassured because occasionally my wife will spontaneously aver (contrary to all expectation) that I am a genius, then I get distracted and start chasing some ideas, then I get depressed again because, well, shit, I s…

No, I don't vote, and my predictions don't imply endorsement. All politicians suck, even those who aren't (or weren't) politicians.

You're good at lying to yourself, too. Bush and Gore weren't the same. Clinton and Trump weren't the same, either. Had Gore won, we'd literally live in a different world. The Middle East might not be as stable as the US, but it would be vastly more stable than it is now.

And, looking back in 4 years, I'm pretty sure the world will be very different than it would be had Clinton gotten elected.

Between you types (the apathetic) and the Trump voters, we are so fucked.

Re: Both geniuses and madmen pay attention to what others ignore

#187
post #20

Every time I read one of these articles about genius and madness, I become smug for a little while, then I get depressed because I realize that I haven't accomplished anything noteworthy, then I'm mildly reassured because occasionally my wife will spontaneously aver (contrary to all expectation) that I am a genius, then I get distracted and start chasing some ideas, then I get depressed again because, well, shit, I s…

When my GF tells me I'm really clever I just say "not really, I have a good memory and read a lot." I'm not proud of my intelligence, why would I be? (much of it) is determined by genetics and the environment you grew up in and I had little control over either of those. I also point out she is the one who speaks 3 languages fluently, has a degree in finance and qualified as a shipbroker, I just explain things really…

Love this description, 'very fast idiot' is poignant and accurate. May have to steal that one from you.

In a similar vein, my mom and dad forked into different paths but are both intelligent in very different ways. The intelligence that allows him to speak five languages fluently, though, is something that's really far from my mom's aptitude with Fortran and laser physics, or my own with the "very fast idiots" (as you say) that I work with.

Re: Both geniuses and madmen pay attention to what others ignore

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This whole line of reasoning that Psychopath = Super Intelligence Serial Killer is misguided. All of the studies to date have used the criminal population as the sole source of research for psychopathy - as your reference does. The point I was making with my lengthy post is that, in fact, genius level psychopaths don't become murderers; they become Presidents, Dictators and Hedge Fund managers.

Because the set of criminals used in the research are confirmed psychopaths, so it's the only way to conduct such a study. You cannot round up Hedge Fund managers for such a study. But this also makes what you're saying somewhat non-falsifiable. Highly successful people basically are extremely driven and ambitious, and they work all the time . (I'm assuming you relate to this.) But there is no evidence (as far as I k…

Actually there are studies and books on this:

Book: The sociopath next door - Martha Stout

Study from Bond university finding 21% of CEOs exhibit psychopathic behavior. [1]

Also it's not about seeking power... Another misconception. It's about not having empathy and if you look at eg. Einstein's personal life (first marriage, obsession with ego etc...) it's clear that he fits the profile.

[1]https://www.google.com/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/...

Re: Both geniuses and madmen pay attention to what others ignore

#189
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right. I'm also afraid of what the answer would be.

One had the loveliest wife you'd ever want to meet, a great match for each other, yet he couldn't stop himself from having serial affairs. He even asked me and others for help 15 years ago, but couldn't stop. He is now a lonely middle-aged guy striving to paper over the self-inflicted pain. (I know this, despite his denials, because I've known him for over 30 years.) One has been completely inactive as far as I can t…

Thanks for putting up with all these questions. You seem to have your own "Big Bang Theory" going on, but with more tears.

Re: Both geniuses and madmen pay attention to what others ignore

#190
post #20

Every time I read one of these articles about genius and madness, I become smug for a little while, then I get depressed because I realize that I haven't accomplished anything noteworthy, then I'm mildly reassured because occasionally my wife will spontaneously aver (contrary to all expectation) that I am a genius, then I get distracted and start chasing some ideas, then I get depressed again because, well, shit, I s…

as a you poor HN comment reader I look forward to what you're working on
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