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Nevertheless, She Coded

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Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#181

Post by cholantesh »

sdflkd wrote: post #140
chrisbrandow wrote: post #70

I just had a conversation with a friend of mine today about the issues she is facing as a "woman in tech". It was some stuff that really surprised me. On today of all days. Treatment of women as full-fledged peers is definitely something that needs better attention in our industry.

Yep. I go to the top university in Canada (wrt being employable in technology) and work with/know many qualified females. I can say that there is only one (out of ~25) that claims she has never experienced any sexism.

But how do we know the other 24 aren't just crazy/hysterical/paranoid? /s

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#182

Post by dang »

HiResSleep wrote: post #130

People who forward the feminist narrative always insist that they are interested in having a "conversation", but this is a lie, as evidenced by this statement. Agreement with my position proves my position. Disagreement with my position proves my position. You're not interested in speaking with people who disagree with you. A dialogue you want not. You wish to have a monologue, where you are the teacher and anyone wh…

We banned this account for trolling and detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13824976 and marked it off-topic.

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#183

Post by dang »

ruleabidinguser wrote: post #110

Also because the issue essentially doesnt exist. A victim complex is a real thing and there are real victims. You must acknowledge both, not just the latter (or just the former for that matter.) Sexism is real but severely overblown in my experience.

Inflammatory generic statement about divisive topics are what we don't want on HN. Please abide by the rules: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13825039 and marked it off-topic.

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#184

Post by xienze »

tghw wrote: post #152
CryoLogic wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I studied economics in college, and worked with a professor who was researching the "pay gap". We found that adjusting for a number of factors (profession, experience, education, etc.) the pay gap actually closes significantly. That isn't to say some companies don't have pay gap, but it is largely overblown and often dissimilar pay is a result of other factors. tl;dr 70 cents on the dollar is not a real thing when yo…

I agree that talking about a $0.7X to the dollar pay gap isn't helpful, since it isn't controlled for a number of factors. But there still is a pay gap of 2-20%, , depending on the industry, attributable only to difference in gender. It's better than it's made out to be, but that there still is a gap is not right.

> attributable only to difference in gender.

Ehhh you're really gonna need to show me this study, including detailed descriptions of the male and female cohorts showing that every male and female pair in the study are exactly the same age, have the same amount of experience, exact same education level, and work for the same company. Otherwise you can't really claim that the only difference is gender, now can you?

The problem is, you can't come up with such a study. Furthermore, the idea that companies are paying women with "exactly the same" skills as men in "exactly the same" positions up to 20% less doesn't make any sense at all. Why would I ever hire a man in that case? I'd rather save 20% off the top. And if I had no choice but to hire a man, why would I pay 20% over the market rate? And how is it that this conspiracy to pay women less exists in every company, in every industry, in every country in the world?

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#185

Post by [deleted] »

sanswork wrote: post #175
pyronik wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that logic, women can never know if there is sexism because they don't have all that mythical privilege to compare it to. I'd love to see one time ... one time.. there be a focus on the disparity between men and women in waste services, janitorial services, etc. We accept they don't prefer those jobs but suddenly in tech (since it became sexy) its now a problem?

>I'd love to see one time ... one time.. there be a focus on the disparity between men and women in waste services, janitorial services, etc. Why? >We accept they don't prefer those jobs but suddenly in tech (since it became sexy) its now a problem? You answered this yourself. One of the fields is desirable and the other isn't so of course there is going to be more concern about the desirable one.

[deleted]

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#186

Post by rubicon33 »

drewrv wrote: post #153
CryoLogic wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I studied economics in college, and worked with a professor who was researching the "pay gap". We found that adjusting for a number of factors (profession, experience, education, etc.) the pay gap actually closes significantly. That isn't to say some companies don't have pay gap, but it is largely overblown and often dissimilar pay is a result of other factors. tl;dr 70 cents on the dollar is not a real thing when yo…

> often dissimilar pay is a result of other factors. Why do these "other factors" push down the pay rate of women by almost 30%? If these other factors were random noise you'd expect them to affect both genders approximately equally. The fact that men work more hours or that women take on more childcare duties does not mean that the pay gap doesn't exist. All it means that it's caused by cultural factors.

Perhaps because one of the factors is job/title. The 0.70 cent figure, isn't controlling for the work being done. It's a uniform blanket stat, that is severely short sited.

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#187

Post by donretag »

unknownsavage wrote: post #167

The grandstanding is corny at best. Take the first example: > Despite continued assaults on the credibility of her contributions to modern computer science as the world’s first computer programmer, Ada Lovelace coded. Yet in reality she was very much respected in her day, and despite her challenges received widespread support. The first "assaults" on her scope of her contributions came over 100 after her death, and n…

It was difficult for me to read the rest of the article once I came across that sentence. Granted, I have not read everything regarding Ada Lovelace, but she has always been acknowledged and respected. There is a major programming language named after her!

The "assaults" on her credibility did not happen to her during her lifetime. Even if they are proven to be true, her proven contributions are still impressive.

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#188

Post by [deleted] »

xor1 wrote: post #173
phlakaton wrote: post #104

If ever I had a notion that an expression of solidarity for women in tech was unnecessary or quixotic, the response to this article on this very forum would be sufficient to dispel it.

From what I've seen, there are less African-American and non-white hispanic men in tech than there are white and Asian women, yet I never see this discussed. Is this not an important issue as well? Will skewed racial ratios only be handled after gender parity has been achieved? Or do they not matter at all?

[deleted]

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#189

Post by ar15saveslives »

hexane360 wrote: post #177
ar15saveslives wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they make less than men, why don't companies hire women alone? Don't they want to save money on salaries?

Because women are subconsciously undervalued as workers. This discussion is complex and it's not entirely obvious how much of the pay gap is caused by discrimination, but this is one stupid argument.

What do you mean by "subconsciously undervalued"? Do you have studies that show it? What about participation in opensource? Side projects? StackOverflow profiles? - none of these can be affected by "subconscious undervaluation".

And how to value, let's say, a developer? How do you, personally, differentiate good and bad programmers?

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#190

Post by ljknight »

sdflkd wrote: post #140
chrisbrandow wrote: post #70

I just had a conversation with a friend of mine today about the issues she is facing as a "woman in tech". It was some stuff that really surprised me. On today of all days. Treatment of women as full-fledged peers is definitely something that needs better attention in our industry.

Yep. I go to the top university in Canada (wrt being employable in technology) and work with/know many qualified females. I can say that there is only one (out of ~25) that claims she has never experienced any sexism.

Even the women who say they have never experienced blatant sexism have no idea how many job offers or interviews they didn't get simply for being a woman, or how much less money they are making over the course of their life, etc. Sexism is not always explicit and obvious.
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