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The Other Half

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Re: The Other Half

#181
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He said middle-aged guys with no obvious health problems Why would anyone see a doctor unless they had a health problem? (Or wanted health advice?)

Regular preventive checkups are (or should be?) a thing. Quite a few deadly things need to be caught before they become obvious problems. As a crude example, prostate cancer is one of diseases causing death for men; and has the "nice" property that if it's detected early in a screening then it's (usually) treatable with minor side effects, but by the time it causes symptoms serious enough to seek a fix for the sympto…

What you say about prostate cancer is wrong/misleading/outdated. The side effects of prostate cancer treatment can absolutely not be described as "minor." Routine screening of asymptomatic average risk men have caused more harm than good.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/a-skeptical-look-at-screeni...

>Prostate cancer is very common but isn’t always harmful. It is found in 80% of autopsies where the men died of something else. Many more men die with prostate cancer than because of it.

>The screening test for prostate cancer is a blood test for prostate-specific antigen (PSA). This is not a yes-or-no test. It must be interpreted in the context of the patient’s age and risk factors and the rate of rise, and any cut-off level is arbitrary and will miss some small percentage of cancers. If the PSA test is positive, the next step is biopsy. Typically, 12 needle biopsies are done, 6 on each side. They find cancer in 25% of patients. But if you go back and do more biopsies, you’ll find cancer in 25% more patients. Theoretically, if you could see every cell in the prostate, you might be able to find a cancer cell or two in almost everyone, most of which would never progress or kill the patient. So you have to decide how many biopsies are reasonable. If you find cancer on a biopsy, the next step is treatment, and treatments for prostate cancer are not benign.

>In a large European study, screening resulted in an absolute reduction in deaths from prostate cancer of 7 per 10,000 men screened. We can look at this in terms of number needed to screen (NNS) and number needed to treat (NNT). To prevent one death from prostate cancer, 1,068 men would have to be screened and 48 treated. But here’s the kicker: there was no reduction in all-cause mortality. The overall death rate was the same in the screened group as in the unscreened group.

>If a prostate cancer is localized and low grade, it is reasonable to observe the patient and not treat unless he develops signs of progression. A recent study compared surgery to watchful waiting and found no reduction in deaths. Within 30 days of surgery, 1/5 of the patients had complications including deaths. 2 years after surgery, these long term complications were present:

    17% were incontinent
    81% had erectile dysfunction
    12% had bowel dysfunction
>Popular advice has been “Get tested; it could save your life” but current expert advice is “Don’t get tested; it does more harm than good.” (Mainly from impotence and incontinence.) Emotional anecdotes abound. One doctor wrote an article titled “The New York Times Killed My Patient.” His patient refused PSA testing because he had read that it was not recommended; he developed invasive prostate cancer and died. Another doctor wrote about the opposite experience: his patient had insisted on testing. He was diagnosed with low-grade localized cancer, the kind that can be observed without treating. But he couldn’t face living with the knowledge that he was harboring an untreated cancer. He was afraid of surgery and opted for radiation treatment. He developed radiation proctitis and had rectal pain and bleeding for years. He became impotent and lost bladder control. He told his doctor he would rather be dead than live wearing adult diapers.

>The American Urological Association initially disagreed with the recommendation not to screen, but they have re-considered and issued these new recommendations:

    Don’t screen men under 40 or over 70
    Don’t screen men with a life expectancy of less than 10-15 years
    Don’t screen men age 40-50 who are at average risk
    Consider screening men age 55-69 who are at average risk
    Consider screening high risk men of any age
    Before any screening, doctor should discuss risks and benefits with patient

The U.S. Preventive Services Task Force concludes:

https://www.uspreventiveservicestaskforce.org/Page/Document/...

>Although the precise, long-term effect of PSA screening on prostate cancer–specific mortality remains uncertain, existing studies adequately demonstrate that the reduction in prostate cancer mortality after 10 to 14 years is, at most, very small, even for men in what seems to be the optimal age range of 55 to 69 years. There is no apparent reduction in all-cause mortality. In contrast, the harms associated with the diagnosis and treatment of screen-detected cancer are common, occur early, often persist, and include a small but real risk for premature death. Many more men in a screened population will experience the harms of screening and treatment of screen-detected disease than will experience the benefit. The inevitability of overdiagnosis and overtreatment of prostate cancer as a result of screening means that many men will experience the adverse effects of diagnosis and treatment of a disease that would have remained asymptomatic throughout their lives. Assessing the balance of benefits and harms requires weighing a moderate to high probability of early and persistent harm from treatment against the very low probability of preventing a death from prostate cancer in the long term. The USPSTF concludes that there is moderate certainty that the benefits of PSA-based screening for prostate cancer do not outweigh the harms.

We are slowly learning to do much less asymptomatic screening, though charities and celebrities are fighting against it. Joe Torre still comes on my TV saying "get screened early and often." The generic advice about "always catching cancer early" being an unequivocal good thing is false. Over-diagnosis and over-treatment are huge problems. For another example, thyroid cancer screening in South Korea has resulted in a massive increase in thyroid cancer diagnosis and treatment but not any decrease in thyroid cancer mortality.

I can go on about this topic, but I won't. I suggest reading that blog I linked to, its fantastic.

Re: The Other Half

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"What’s the biggest single factor that puts you at risk for ignoring your health? Being a man. Sociologist Lisa Wade, interviewed in New York Magazine, says that 'some scholars argue that being male is the single strongest predictor of whether a person will take health risks.' Men like risk it turns out. Most of them also hate putting lotion on their skin (too girly) and being afraid of things (not manly). They are a…

It's not popular these days to claim that there are differences between men and women.

Popularity and truth are correlated but sometimes orthogonal.

Re: The Other Half

#183

I wonder all the time why we don't have more widely available, "consumer grade" tech like handheld ECGs, etc., to help better detect stuff like this. (There are products like this, but not in U.S. markets to my understanding - at least not without a prescription) If you're unfortunate enough to suffer from something like anxiety attacks and also have heart trouble in your family's medical history it is very difficult…

Once I learned I had Atrial Fibrillation (AF) I wrote an app that pulls my heart rate data from a normal consumer Polar chestband, then pushes it to a server where I can see it on Grafana.

It was incredibly useful, and helped me learn what the different feelings in my heart mean. I know exactly when I am in AF and when I am not.

There seems to be a huge gap for this kind of consumer grade offering, probably because the medical fraternity is extremely conservative about any technology, even though the alternative is ... nothing.

Re: The Other Half

#184
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He said middle-aged guys with no obvious health problems Why would anyone see a doctor unless they had a health problem? (Or wanted health advice?)

Regular preventive checkups are (or should be?) a thing. Quite a few deadly things need to be caught before they become obvious problems. As a crude example, prostate cancer is one of diseases causing death for men; and has the "nice" property that if it's detected early in a screening then it's (usually) treatable with minor side effects, but by the time it causes symptoms serious enough to seek a fix for the sympto…

[deleted]

Re: The Other Half

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"What’s the biggest single factor that puts you at risk for ignoring your health? Being a man. Sociologist Lisa Wade, interviewed in New York Magazine, says that 'some scholars argue that being male is the single strongest predictor of whether a person will take health risks.' Men like risk it turns out. Most of them also hate putting lotion on their skin (too girly) and being afraid of things (not manly). They are a…

It's not popular these days to claim that there are differences between men and women.

It's funny though, because I've heard tons of women, many of them progressive, from 20s to 60s, who eagerly acknowledge differences between men and women.

I have to think hard to recall otherwise. Usually it would be in context of a specific argument. Maybe I just don't know any hard core feminists.

Re: The Other Half

#186

A (35ish y/o) family friend died 2 months ago from a heart attack, suspected high cholesterol. He was seemingly healthy, active and not overweight. Anyone else have experience with cholesterol in early 30's?

Last time I had my cholesterol checked about 6-7 years ago, it appeared normal, though my HDL was low. I'm 31 now and have been having a weird heart feeling. Not a pain though, but like beating issues. Depending on what I eat and which supplements I take, my heart starts beating weird and my blood pressure goes up. The weird beating seems like my heart is either beating normally or weakly and then there's a "hiccup"…

(I am not a doctor).

Skipped beats are often normal (see PVCs, PACs).

A highly irregular rhythm, e.g. where your heart goes beat..beat..beatbeatbeat.beat...beat..beatbeat may be a sign you have Atrial Fibrillation, and you should definitely jump on that if you do.

Re: The Other Half

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"What’s the biggest single factor that puts you at risk for ignoring your health? Being a man. Sociologist Lisa Wade, interviewed in New York Magazine, says that 'some scholars argue that being male is the single strongest predictor of whether a person will take health risks.' Men like risk it turns out. Most of them also hate putting lotion on their skin (too girly) and being afraid of things (not manly). They are a…

It's not popular these days to claim that there are differences between men and women.

I have traveled in some of the most socially liberal circles in the US, and I have to disagree with you about what's popular - or at least make it much more specific. It's not popular to claim that there are significant, biologically-determined, mental differences between men and women. Small differences, cultural differences, and corporeal differences are all accepted. This zeitgeist may still be incorrect, but it's not terrible as a heuristic.

Re: The Other Half

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only problem is a checkup on my fantastic insurance costs 25$, 50$ if I go to the urgent care. There was a time in my life when that would mean I'm eating beans and rice for 2 weeks to make up for that. It's a damn shame but going in "just in case" isn't really an option for everybody, especially if you're on the types of insurance lower-income people have (or, none whatsoever).

That's the sad shit the US is in. I am sorry :(

On the other hand, here at the great socialist Nordics, if I go to the public health care and say I want a check-up, they'll laugh me out. I won't even meet a doctor.

And I guess they are right. They say our public health care system is excellent.

Re: The Other Half

#189
post #166
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He said middle-aged guys with no obvious health problems Why would anyone see a doctor unless they had a health problem? (Or wanted health advice?)

A health problem that you are aware of . You're supposed to see a doctor periodically because they might catch health problems that haven't yet advanced to the point that you know they're happening.

It's not surprising that the US has such a problem of overdiagnosis and overtreatment.

http://www.bmj.com/content/349/bmj.g5432

Re: The Other Half

#190
post #5

"I’d now had been experiencing a heart attack for about a week." Holy cow. I didn't realize this was possible. This is a good lesson to all of us not to ignore weird, painful phenomena in our body.

My Grandad drove himself to the hospital the second time he had a heart attack. He decided it was faster than waiting for an ambulance. His wife can't drive b/c she's legally blind now.
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