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The Mark Zuckerberg Manifesto Is a Blueprint for Destroying Journalism

theatlantic.com

181–190 of 209 posts

Re: The Mark Zuckerberg Manifesto Is a Blueprint for Destroying Journalism

#181

We as an industry have kicked around "how to save journalism" for years now. Here's what I've got: If you want journalism, sponsor endowments for journalists to report in certain areas, like foreign policy or local government. At the same time, and critically, sponsor endowments for editors to put a tight reign on these journalists. Completely decouple good journalism for hunting-for-eyeballs. Then let the content cu…

For the most part I agree. Some version of this has been discussed for years: basically a non-profit, non-commercial, bipartisan, transparent, independent, professional journalism organization(s) using an endowment or donation-based funding model seems to be one of the best options at the moment.

The cynics and trolls will attack the idea that it's impossible. Ignore them of course, it is possible but it will not be perfect, and it must be open about it not being perfect. The pragmatists have the more valid pushback: implementing such a solution is still too difficult, too expensive, it will take too long and it may crowd-out remaining journalists who are still in business while discouraging other solutions coming forward.

I think it can start small. It has to. But the seeds how this could work can be seen in organizations like C-SPAN, National Public Radio and Wikipedia (Yes, Wikipedia is also not perfect but it's pretty damn good and arguably better than for-profit journalism right now in terms accuracy and staying close to the center on stories). Expanding on those models has potential if support for doing so can be rallied and the idea can be paid for.

Who knows, this could turn into a US version of Pravda, if it even gets off the ground. Maybe. But when current journalism is already a biased disaster still going out of business, what's the harm in trying a little experiment and giving other options like this a try?

Re: The Mark Zuckerberg Manifesto Is a Blueprint for Destroying Journalism

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Closer to 64%. But yes, two thirds of online ads to two entities, neither journalistic. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-04-22/google-an...

Used to be that advertisers didn't know which 50% of their budget they were wasting. That money paid for interesting writing, some of it even investigative reporting. Now advertisers can track the last red cent. Thank you, W3C. Well done, even if that wasn't the intention. (Beware answered prayers, etc., etc.)

Turns out it's slightly more complicated with that: it's possible to track direct interactions with online content and advertising, but it's not entirely clear that that's all that useful, and it may well be harmful.

The Register had some recent bits on this ("what part of advertising is wasted? All of it" is my recollection of the headline), and I've been kicking around this topic for a while.

Re: The Mark Zuckerberg Manifesto Is a Blueprint for Destroying Journalism

#183
post #115

The author cites research that ties a downfall in civic engagement to the demise of local news coverage. While I find this correlation to be obvious (to my line of thinking), she assigns no responsibility for this demise to her peers -- the ones writing news and opinion. In the large Midwestern cities in which I have lived, local newspapers generally choose to align themselves on the side of local governments and cha…

I.F. Stone had a great deal to say on journalistic independence in a 1974 public television interview on "Day at Night". https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qV3gO3zxQ1g Small-town papers are beholden to small-town interests. Stone notes that the large-city and national dailies (NY Times, Washington Post, LA Times, possibly the Boston Globe, the Wall Street Journal at the itme) were freed of dependence on any one advertiser…

The last observation in that interview is still current.

> The president, irrespective of who he is, today, is so powerful that the temptations of the office for good or evil are too great for any one man. I think we ought to begin to dismantle the office. I think we ought to have a head of state symbolizing the country around whom the natural feeling of patriotism and reverence accrue and separate him from the head of the government.

Re: The Mark Zuckerberg Manifesto Is a Blueprint for Destroying Journalism

#184
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe your points were already well addressed, but lets take another stab at this. A number of studies have indicated that media displayed substantial bias during the primaries. That bias was directly in line with Clinton's campaign strategy, as stated in another child to the parent comment. https://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-presidentia... I'm not sure what else you're looking for. More on the caus…

What? From the summary of your link: "Why was Clinton’s coverage substantially more negative than Sanders’, and why did Sanders get so much less coverage than she did?" Did I ever claim the media wasn't biased? Of course the media had an effect on the election, and that effect wasn't neutral. The fact that the media has systemic biases does not imply that major media organizations conspired in favor of a candidate, H…

The primary criticism of media from the Sanders camp was a lack of coverage. Please revisit the Shorenstein Center study on this point.

The numbers bear this out, and you're welcome to do further homework on the issue, as well as the importance of variables at play in media coverage. Sentiment analysis is not the only element of reporting coverage that matters. Here's some more analysis which shows the putative internal mechanism for the frequency of media's reporting, which is consistent with the internal stakeholder incentives. The analysis shows that there is a dramatic decoupling in reporting frequency as between Clinton and Sanders. http://decisiondata.org/news/political-media-blackouts-presi...

The finding regarding his airtime in comparison to Cruz in the Shorenstein report is damning. So is the search interest correlation decoupling between him and Hillary.

Those are hard numbers. Numbers which bear our a narrative which was raised and repeated during the primaries, and then vindicated by numerical analysis afterwards by a number of reputable sources. Additionally, when the DNC leaks did occur, they revealed that Clinton's preferred media outcome did occur, and that the DNC systemically favoured her over Sanders.

Put simply, we have the act laid bare by statistical analysis, the relationships between the actors in question mapped out by the leaks, and the incentive for the parties to act all mapped out, yet your position is that there is no evidence whatsoever that something happened.

Re: The Mark Zuckerberg Manifesto Is a Blueprint for Destroying Journalism

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This going way over the line for politics on HN but I can't let it go. Everyone repeating the story you are pushing is robbing the Hillary supporters of their agency. I've voted for Democrats for years and years. I didn't view Bernie as a once in a lifetime opportunity. I saw him as way too far left for me. I was clearly wrong on the relative electability of Hillary & Bernie, but I'm voted in the primary for the cand…

We have little to no evidence about the electability of Bernie.

A number of comparative studies were performed during the primaries regarding the electibility of various candidates against their counterparts on the other side. Sanders performed very well against Trump on those metrics.

There are a number of people advancing the 'we have no evidence' banner in this thread, which is strange because studies of electibility were commonly discussed here during the primaries.

Re: The Mark Zuckerberg Manifesto Is a Blueprint for Destroying Journalism

#186
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have little to no evidence about the electability of Bernie.

A number of comparative studies were performed during the primaries regarding the electibility of various candidates against their counterparts on the other side. Sanders performed very well against Trump on those metrics. There are a number of people advancing the 'we have no evidence' banner in this thread, which is strange because studies of electibility were commonly discussed here during the primaries.

I just happen to believe it.

What it comes down to is that I don't think electability polls taken before the conventions can really tell us much about how people would feel about Sanders after he started getting hammered in a general election.

Re: The Mark Zuckerberg Manifesto Is a Blueprint for Destroying Journalism

#187
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? From the summary of your link: "Why was Clinton’s coverage substantially more negative than Sanders’, and why did Sanders get so much less coverage than she did?" Did I ever claim the media wasn't biased? Of course the media had an effect on the election, and that effect wasn't neutral. The fact that the media has systemic biases does not imply that major media organizations conspired in favor of a candidate, H…

The primary criticism of media from the Sanders camp was a lack of coverage. Please revisit the Shorenstein Center study on this point. The numbers bear this out, and you're welcome to do further homework on the issue, as well as the importance of variables at play in media coverage. Sentiment analysis is not the only element of reporting coverage that matters. Here's some more analysis which shows the putative inter…

Not at all. You're describing a real problem, but it is in no way a conspiracy, in no way is it new, and in now way is it uniquely related to Hillary Clinton. The media has a problem with "horserace" coverage, which is the subject of your Shorenstein Center study. The problem, which is structural rather than conspiratorial, is that the media is obsessed with covering which candidates are winning and by how much, with projecting who they think will actually win, and then focusing on those candidates. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and creates an enormous barrier to entry for outsider candidates. As the Shorenstein Center study concludes:

"The problems associated with press coverage of the 2016 nominating campaign are rooted in the mismatch of journalism values and the structure of the nominating process. There is little question that the nature of the 2016 campaign—Trump’s presence, particularly—brought the mismatch into sharp relief. But the broad tendencies in press coverage of the 2016 coverage are ones that exhibit themselves every four years."

The truth is that Sanders was considered by everyone to be a long shot candidate, so he got less coverage. The coverage he did get was much more positive than the coverage of Clinton. They both got radically less coverage than Trump. So, no act laid bare by statistical analysis, just a long-standing bias in favor of covering the most famous candidates with the most celebrity status.

The relationships between candidates and reporters is totally public and was in no way revealed by any leaks. It's an obvious part of doing the job of political reporter that only people who had never closely followed a campaign were surprised by, and that was willfully misrepresented by the likes of Breitbart and Fox News as somehow nefarious. Remember, there was no corresponding RNC leak, which would of course show that reporters were talking to politicians there constantly too. There is nothing in the DNC leaks that proves reporters working in concert with the DNC to influence the outcome of the election in Hillary's favor, only that the two groups were attempting to influence each other in service of their own goals (to get new information and to win the election, respectively). So, no relationships between actors mapped out.

Anyway, if there were a scheme to use frequent mentions to favor a candidate, it's clearly Trump, not Clinton. It's well documented that Trump stories drove the most clicks, which is why news outlets focused so much on him. Was there a massive conspiracy between all the Republicans, including Trump himself, who spoke to reporters every day, clearly tilted the general election in favor of Trump, and had a direct incentive to get a scandal-prone celebrity into office?

Most people who follow politics closely know that Clinton has a famously bad relationship with the media and has earned incredibly negative coverage as a result. She's very famous and so she gets covered but there is definitely no giant multi-company conspiracy to support her.

Re: The Mark Zuckerberg Manifesto Is a Blueprint for Destroying Journalism

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, that is not what I'm claiming. I'm arguing for a normative claim: when people agree on the facts, they should not disagree on opinion. I'm confused, isn't that exactly what the parent's argument is though? You said that's not what you're saying, and then repeat the exact same thing, contradicting yourself. Personally I disagree with you, if I'm understanding correctly. To me, a huge chunk of the population, you…

I hope to clear this up. If I understood him correctly, he's saying that I was claiming that if we agreed on facts (if facts were settled, as it were), we would agree in opinions, which is clearly false as a matter of fact. My claim is that we should agree in opinions, if facts were settled. I think difference between would / should is significant here. I am saying: if facts were settled, and we had a disagreement, a…

It's a largely philosophical question so not surprising that it's difficult to go about.

At least for me, I am coming from the angle that some things are a matter of fact, and some are a matter of opinion. For example, everyone can be fully informed on economics, but on the matter of "how much should a waiter be paid in New York City", there is no "right" answer.

That might very well be not what the disagreement was about from your perspective though. :/

Re: The Mark Zuckerberg Manifesto Is a Blueprint for Destroying Journalism

#189
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The primary criticism of media from the Sanders camp was a lack of coverage. Please revisit the Shorenstein Center study on this point. The numbers bear this out, and you're welcome to do further homework on the issue, as well as the importance of variables at play in media coverage. Sentiment analysis is not the only element of reporting coverage that matters. Here's some more analysis which shows the putative inter…

Not at all. You're describing a real problem, but it is in no way a conspiracy, in no way is it new, and in now way is it uniquely related to Hillary Clinton. The media has a problem with "horserace" coverage, which is the subject of your Shorenstein Center study. The problem, which is structural rather than conspiratorial, is that the media is obsessed with covering which candidates are winning and by how much, with…

[Citation needed]

Your hypothesis has been debunked in the provided sources, as well as elsewhere.

Even when viewer intent is controlled for in models, Sanders was consistently substantially underrepresented in coverage, while Hillary was substantially over-represented. Additionally, pole results correlated poorly with coverage volume.

If you read the leaks, you will note that contrary to your statement that "There is nothing in the DNC leaks that proves reporters working in concert", there is substantial evidence that key, impactful information was provided to the Clinton campaign and that Clinton's campaign desires aligned with reporting in fact.

Clinton wanted Trump to be a frontrunner because she thought she could eviscerate him. This is contained in the leak.

That she did not, in fact, do so, doesn't indicate that there was no conformity between her campaign strategy and the media coverage in fact. Most media narratives leading up to the election indicated that Hillary was substantially ahead.

Your argument that 'the two groups were attempting to influence each other in service of their own goals' doesn't indicate that there wasn't an improper collusion. If you and I own companies, and we agree in service of our own goals to raise prices and reduce competition, in most jurisdictions we would be thrown in jail. Which is why the conversations in which these agreements happen (and they do) are not. written. down.

Re: The Mark Zuckerberg Manifesto Is a Blueprint for Destroying Journalism

#190
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A number of comparative studies were performed during the primaries regarding the electibility of various candidates against their counterparts on the other side. Sanders performed very well against Trump on those metrics. There are a number of people advancing the 'we have no evidence' banner in this thread, which is strange because studies of electibility were commonly discussed here during the primaries.

I just happen to believe it. What it comes down to is that I don't think electability polls taken before the conventions can really tell us much about how people would feel about Sanders after he started getting hammered in a general election.

Certainly! That's a fair criticism. I just wanted to point out that the statement that there is 'little or no evidence' is not accurate. Many rounds of electability analysis were performed.
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