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Dakota Access Pipeline to win US Army permit for completion

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Re: Dakota Access Pipeline to win US Army permit for completion

#181

Post by chimeracoder »

zenta wrote: post #101
protomyth wrote: post #14

At this point, the main concern is getting that camp cleaned up before the flood comes. It should be noted that the tribe has passed a resolution for protestors to go home[1] with no provisions for relocation. This isn't the only area of North Dakota that is going to flood this year and money spent on this foolishness is going to be missed. Devils Lake is going to rise about 4' under current estimates. The reporting…

Those FAQs/Facts are amusing. > Myth: Law enforcement officers deployed concussion grenades resulting in the grievous injury to a protester’s arm. > Fact: Law enforcement has at no time used concussion grenades during protest activities. Non-lethal munitions used include: impact sponge rounds, drag stabilizer bean bag rounds, riot control CS (tear gas) canister and water, Taser, and stinger balls, which are small rub…

> Non-lethal munitions used include: impact sponge rounds, drag stabilizer bean bag rounds,

That's an interesting definition of "non-lethal". "Non-lethal" in this case apparently does not mean "cannot kill the target", because bean bag rounds absolutely can be lethal when shot at someone. They're shot fast enough that they can easily damage internal organs or even fracture your skull.

Re: Dakota Access Pipeline to win US Army permit for completion

#182

Post by breatheoften »

dbg31415 wrote: post #137
protomyth wrote: post #14

At this point, the main concern is getting that camp cleaned up before the flood comes. It should be noted that the tribe has passed a resolution for protestors to go home[1] with no provisions for relocation. This isn't the only area of North Dakota that is going to flood this year and money spent on this foolishness is going to be missed. Devils Lake is going to rise about 4' under current estimates. The reporting…

> 2) There are no friggin wild buffalo roaming North Dakota - they are all on ranches, preserves, or the national park land. Thank you. I grew up on a ranch near there (about 30 minutes from where the protests are happening) and I know ranchers who have had tractors and combines (clearly not a piece of machinery involved in laying a pipeline) ruined because protestors put sugar and dirt in the gas tanks. The people o…

I can't find any reports claiming that any buffalo died during the stampede which reportedly involved a cut fence enclosing a herd of livestock buffalo. I read about a horse death that appears to have been a protester's horse that was shot by a bullet -- seems like the protesters involved with the stampede were on horseback and the police who chased them were on ATVs.

The accounts of buffalo/bison death I find are claims by ranchers that buffalo have been stolen/slaughtered by out of state protesters and that buffalo near the protest areas have been killed after being spooked within their enclosure by loud noises that resulted from clashes between protesters and law enforcement.

I'm not finding the media bias you claim from any reputable sources.

Re: Dakota Access Pipeline to win US Army permit for completion

#183

Post by jrs235 »

chimeracoder wrote: post #181
zenta wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those FAQs/Facts are amusing. > Myth: Law enforcement officers deployed concussion grenades resulting in the grievous injury to a protester’s arm. > Fact: Law enforcement has at no time used concussion grenades during protest activities. Non-lethal munitions used include: impact sponge rounds, drag stabilizer bean bag rounds, riot control CS (tear gas) canister and water, Taser, and stinger balls, which are small rub…

> Non-lethal munitions used include: impact sponge rounds, drag stabilizer bean bag rounds, That's an interesting definition of "non-lethal". "Non-lethal" in this case apparently does not mean "cannot kill the target", because bean bag rounds absolutely can be lethal when shot at someone. They're shot fast enough that they can easily damage internal organs or even fracture your skull.

I believe they're actually called less-lethal.

Re: Dakota Access Pipeline to win US Army permit for completion

#184

Post by untog »

protomyth wrote: post #128
untog wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just look at the organizers here and what groups pay them That is the information I am asking for. A Google search for "soros site:www.kfyrtv.com" returns nothing. The reason I ask is that "George Soros is funding protests" has become something of a meme in right-wing circles to dismiss anything from the Women's March, the airport protests to Standing Rock as being little more than some kind of left-wing conspiracy…

http://kfyr.iheart.com is the radio - they don't have transcripts as far as I can see - I will look when I have time and after I decide if I really want to spend more time on it. At this point we have a flood coming, and the likelihood that no one will want to do business on any of the reservations. Frankly, when you know people and have relatives on both sides and get told a lot but keep getting called and voted as…

> and get told a lot but keep getting called and voted as a liar

I'm sorry, but that's what happens when you make accusations without any evidence. If your relatives are telling you that George Soros is funding protests, ask them why they think that. Or don't - I know what relatives can be like - but don't blankly repeat their claims when you know you do not possess any evidence to back up the assertion.

Re: Dakota Access Pipeline to win US Army permit for completion

#185

Post by jessaustin »

breatheoften wrote: post #179
jessaustin wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uhhh... I'm not sure how to proceed here. I don't intend to upset anyone. My point was that R's will vote for R's. If that weren't the intention of the electorate, they would have elected a D. (Isn't the "two-party system" fun!) I don't why we'd need to invoke a conspiracy theory, even one offered up by the R in question, to understand why an R would vote for an R. That is, don't believe everything that politicians t…

I definitely will agree with you about the existence of horrible flaws in the "two-party system" - I don't want to put words in your mouth but if you have it, then I share the belief that large improvements to our voting processes are possible. For my part, I'd like to see innovations like instant run-off voting, mathematically fair drawing procedures for the regional boundaries that determine the shape of geographic…

Your "team sports" caricature isn't completely inaccurate, if only because my perception of D-vs-R is that of two ants contending furiously over a postage stamp, while a whole continent of political possibility languishes unnoticed. Sure, if we look close enough, there's probably a difference between one SecEd and another. She'll open a few more charter schools, so a few hundred kids will get a slightly better education and a few dozen teachers will be replaced by their essentially indistinguishable equivalents. That's probably an improvement, on balance, but not one to celebrate in the context of all the rest of the crap that rolls downhill from our rulers.

Re: Dakota Access Pipeline to win US Army permit for completion

#186

Post by dbg31415 »

breatheoften wrote: post #180
dbg31415 wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not a creepy thing to ask at all... Check post history, I've written about growing up on a ranch in a bunch of my posts here. My family ranch is near Shields, ND -- it's a few towns over from Cannon Ball.

Whoa -- that is a very small town in a low population density area. I apologize for asking -- my question does a lot more to attach identity to you than I'd realized. I would delete my question if I still could.

There are maybe 30 families in the zip code...

"Shields' population peaked in 1920 with 250 people"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shields,_North_Dakota

Re: Dakota Access Pipeline to win US Army permit for completion

#187

Post by DrScump »

Zaskoda wrote: post #169
KevinEldon wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would help your argument if you cited public records. Is there a news story, social media discussion, some other documentation of the incident? Do we know who was involved... was it law enforcement or private security? Was the protester in a space they legally had access to or had they moved onto privately owned land?

Not OP but I know how to Google: http://www.snopes.com/2016/11/22/standing-rock-protester-in-...

This is a Snopes news article, not a Fact Check entry. It has a lone author who only quotes "protester" accounts.

Re: Dakota Access Pipeline to win US Army permit for completion

#188

Post by masonic »

Tloewald wrote: post #11
eh78ssxv2f wrote: post #3

I always wonder what's the best way to assess environmental impact of the oil pipeline. Sure, it's going to leak at some point, and create a mess that may never get cleaned up. However, is it safer (or energy efficient) than carrying the oil on trains/trucks?

As far as I understand it, the pipeline being fought over symbolically rather than for reasons that make analytic sense. If there's an environmental argument, it's that the pipeline will make using shale sands oil from Canada cheaper which is a Bad Thing because we use more stuff when it's cheaper. The correct approach would be to make fees and penalties for environmental impact higher (carbon tax, EPA able to levy b…

  as to the subject of the pipeline running through native american territory...  that's a whole different issue.
Especially since the pipeline will not enter Native American territory at any point.

Re: Dakota Access Pipeline to win US Army permit for completion

#189

Post by masonic »

jcoffland wrote: post #71
ars wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If neither, then leave the oil in the ground. Nothing is ever perfectly safe. Nothing you do ever has no impact. Everything in life is about tradeoffs, and the right thing to do is pick the best one. NOT wait for the perfect one!

Waiting generally has a very low environmental impact. Higher energy costs and a slower economy are not necessarily bad. Unbridled growth is not the only option.

Delays in, and cancellations of, nuclear projects for political reasons have had a huge environmental impact, resulting in billions of tons of CO2 release that would not have happened (counting just one pollutant).

(Also, premature decommissioning for political reasons, (e.g. Rancho Seco)

Re: Dakota Access Pipeline to win US Army permit for completion

#190

Post by masonic »

_delirium wrote: post #56
ars wrote: post #5

The review is pointless anyway, it's just useless stalling. They already built 1,171 miles of it - do you think an environmental review is going to make a difference for the last 1 mile? It doesn't matter if you are for or against this, the time to protest it was before they built it, not when it's basically done.

The tribes' position, at least (not necessarily the position of everyone else opposing it) is that it should be rerouted so it isn't tunneled directly under Lake Oahe, their main water source. That's not inconsistent with completing it, since tunneling under the lake isn't the only possible route. Though the pipeline owner would prefer not to reroute it. That was also the basis for the Army Corps of Engineers orderin…

  That was also the basis for the Army Corps of Engineers ordering a more extensive environmental review.
No, that was a purely political decision that gave absolutely no indication of specific deficiencies in the original EIR, nor did it spell out any specific requirements for a "new" EIR.
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