Live data from Hacker News

To Slow Global Warming, We Need Nuclear Power (Op-Ed)

nytimes.com

181–190 of 666 posts

Re: To Slow Global Warming, We Need Nuclear Power (Op-Ed)

#181
post #2

When will the mainstream consider it acceptable to talk about reducing consumption (without confusing it with lowering the standard of living) and reducing the population (without confusing it with eugenics)? We waste incredible amounts and a lower population means more goods for everyone. I'm not saying they solve everything. I'm just asking when we can talk about these issues that are a lot easier to implement than…

Waste is a value judgment. A more constructive rephrasing is to ask when are we going to factor in the cost of externalities (emissions, toxins, etc) into the price of energy.

The best way to reduce consumption, especially for a fungible product like electricity, is by increasing the price. The higher the price someone pays, the less they're going to "waste".

The dilemma is gauging and factoring into the price of a product the cost of externalities, especially externalities that are remote from the consumption. Guaging the cost is difficult (we normally use free markets to do that for us), but factoring the cost into the price is easy.

You can remove subsidies, e.g. for things like coal.

You can tax generation, like a carbon tax.

You can tax consumption, and even get fancy, like using progressive taxation (i.e. low base rate so people can operate their refrigerator, with an increasing rate as consumption grows).

Another alternative is energy saving measures. California has very aggressive energy efficiency requirements for all kinds of products, not just cars. They lead by far every other U.S. state, the U.S. federal government, and even Europe. Most people are unaware of it. Conservative economists argue that it just shifts consumption to other uses. But in _reality_ it's been highly effective; it's a significant reason why California has the lowest per capita energy consumption in the country. The fact of that matter is that changes in consumption patterns are relatively inelastic (as are, notably, responses to energy pricing). So as long as California continues to impose and amend efficiency regulations, it can continue hastening more optimal, more economically efficient energy consumption compared to the "free market" laggards. The trick is that the energy efficiency standards very closely track the state of industrial manufacturing techniques, maximize efficiency gains while minimize manufacturing costs. It's a small example of "central planning" by technocrats gone right. It works because it's practical to quantify the costs (changes in technology and manufacturing methods) and benefits (fewer watts) with a high degree of accuracy; and because if there's a miscalculation and the burden imposed is too high, people simply won't buy new products and will continue using the older, more inefficient ones, so there's a strong signaling loop back to the technocrats.

BTW, it's worth pointing out that we do _all_ of these things. At least, California does. So to answer the question of when we'll begin doing it, we already are, and have been for decades. The real question is, can we do better....

Re: To Slow Global Warming, We Need Nuclear Power (Op-Ed)

#182
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only mass hysteria will force societal change.

Ridiculous claim. Societal changes occur when the right incentives are at play for the change to occur.

{{citation needed}}

Maybe gradual social change works that way, but you certainly can't force change without a little insanity.

Re: To Slow Global Warming, We Need Nuclear Power (Op-Ed)

#183
post #68
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like this is something that's important to you. There were reasons why this is happening, regardless of whether you agree with them or that they're rational. If this is an issue you would like to be more active about, rather than remaining boggled, I encourage you to dig in to determine what those reasons are so you can effectively counteract them.

I don't know if you consider this an effective rebuttal but I live in a place (Ontario, Canada) that made the opposite move at the same time as Germany. All coal plants have been shut down and replaced with additional Nuclear, Hydro, and Natural Gas generation. We now have some of the cheapest electricity in the world (~$0.055 per kwh residential off peak vs. something crazy like $0.30 in Berlin) and haven't had a si…

I see Ontario in the news frequently due to high and rising power costs. [1]

What am I missing?

1. ‪http://www.cbc.ca/1.3860314‬

Re: To Slow Global Warming, We Need Nuclear Power (Op-Ed)

#184
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you want to see "societies" making decisions every single day, look at the market. Not so irrational at all, though. Except for the stock market crashes of 1929 and 1987, the dot-com bubble, the housing bouble followed a crash, the tulip mania, ... Markets are not always rational.

>Except for the stock market crashes of 1929 and 1987, the dot-com bubble, the housing bouble followed a crash, the tulip mania, ... Markets are not always rational. Crashes are expected in the market theory. Crashes are actually healthy outcomes that get rid of mal-investment. There could have been much less severe crashes in the situations you described if there has been less government involvement (there is ample…

Except the crash of 1929 taught the world that free economy knows no bottom. It can spiral down continuously and require a world war level stimulus for extra-market reasons to pull up.

Re: To Slow Global Warming, We Need Nuclear Power (Op-Ed)

#185
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if you consider this an effective rebuttal but I live in a place (Ontario, Canada) that made the opposite move at the same time as Germany. All coal plants have been shut down and replaced with additional Nuclear, Hydro, and Natural Gas generation. We now have some of the cheapest electricity in the world (~$0.055 per kwh residential off peak vs. something crazy like $0.30 in Berlin) and haven't had a si…

I see Ontario in the news frequently due to high and rising power costs. [1] What am I missing? 1. ‪ http://www.cbc.ca/1.3860314‬

I think that link may be session-based. I see "Sorry, we can't find the page you requested."

Re: To Slow Global Warming, We Need Nuclear Power (Op-Ed)

#186
post #94

My undergrad is in Physics and I took engineering classes in Rickover Hall. I was stationed on a nuclear ship. Even after deploying for the Fukushima disaster, I am a fan of nuclear power. But I have a hard time justifying new investment in an era where solar is competitively priced. The downside of solar is approximately 0 compared to the downside of a reactor accident. I'll even allow for the high, high likelihood…

So let me get this straight: 1. It's a given that somehow, somewhere, a nuke is going to get away from humanity. I'm honestly optimistic that it'll just be a reactor problem, and that we -- humanity -- learn every time one happens. (Because engineers are a careful lot.) Then the environmental damage will be less than Fukushima. 2. Solar + A Storage Miracle (that much storage would be a certifiable wonder of the world…

> Once a small reactor, or a country hungry enough (China) succeeds with nuclear

France has been succeeding for quite some time. The majority of their power comes from nuclear.

Re: To Slow Global Warming, We Need Nuclear Power (Op-Ed)

#187

My undergrad is in Physics and I took engineering classes in Rickover Hall. I was stationed on a nuclear ship. Even after deploying for the Fukushima disaster, I am a fan of nuclear power. But I have a hard time justifying new investment in an era where solar is competitively priced. The downside of solar is approximately 0 compared to the downside of a reactor accident. I'll even allow for the high, high likelihood…

Don't even bother talking about political capital. Nuclear is a worse option because it is overpriced, period. It's not just the downsides that are subsidized by the government, the actual running cost is hidden behind reams of bureaucracy, hidden program budgets, optimistic amortizations, and underestimated decommissioning costs. And even then the reactors still manage to go massively over budget with the initial construction.

People like to feel superior to others by citing fear as the reason nuclear is being avoided, but the real reason anyone should oppose it is straight up costs, without even any disasters factored in. Any other choice with the current and next-3-decades technology is just pissing money away, when it could be spent continuing renewables' rapid decline in cost.

Re: To Slow Global Warming, We Need Nuclear Power (Op-Ed)

#188

What do the folks here think of investing in uranium mining stock cameco?

With environmentalists pushing for nuclear station closures, power stations going out of service due to exceeding their lifetime and MOX fuel available, cheap solar, offshore wind, I'd rather not.

Re: To Slow Global Warming, We Need Nuclear Power (Op-Ed)

#189
post #56
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>in an era where solar is competitively priced We're not in that era though. Solar is only competitive if you don't account for storage, which is required if it's going to replace any large percentage of generation.

Nuclear waste storage is subsidized and nuclear liability is too (capped near $12billion; plausible accident scenarios can go over $1trillion).

Nuclear waste storage is only a problem because we want it to be a problem.

Once we actually need alternative energy, we'll figure out that out real quick.

Post reply on HN