Scientists engineer mice genomes to lengthen their lifespans by 30 percent • Hacker News Board

Re: Scientists engineer mice genomes to lengthen their lifespans by 30 percent

#181

Post by closeparen » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 4:26 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #131

closeparen wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about: bad ideas get to remain in power for much longer, because the generations of administrators/voters/executives that enforce them don't turn over. Death ensures adaptation. For example, climate change denying oil barons have done much damage to the world, but we can take some comfort in the knowledge that they will soon die (or at least retire) and that their successors will probably be a little more enlight…

How about: bad ideas get to remain in power for much longer, because the generations of administrators/voters/executives that enforce them don't turn over. But also: you can have people with literally double or more experience, working on your hard problems. You also have a government that will look out much further into the future, because they will see the outcomes themselves.

Sure, but. Look at the state of the world 600 years ago, and imagine that the people at the helm were starting to hand over power just now.

I think the world would look a lot more like it did 600 years ago. Perhaps more moral by some standards, but probably also unable to replicate a technological breakthrough like the eradication of aging.

Re: Scientists engineer mice genomes to lengthen their lifespans by 30 percent

#182

Post by HaveCourage » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 4:36 PM UTC

dandare wrote: post #126

The consequences of longer lifespan to social order are unimaginable. Even increase by dozen of years may result in wars and chaos, especially if the treatment will not be available to everyone. From where I stand it seems that relatively little resources are spent on the research of consequences of longer lifespan compared with the discussions we have about friendly/enemy AI, machines replacing jobs, universal incom…

Historically, as Lifespan increases war and poverty decrease. Its very easy to imagine the parade of imaginary horribles. Those horribles look out of place on a graph of global human fulfillment over time. It's so easy to dream how bad it could all go, that comments focusing on that are 10x the number of comments imagining any of the positive outcomes. Apparently the amazing and wonderful things people create together by not rotting and disappearing are harder to imagine.

Re: Scientists engineer mice genomes to lengthen their lifespans by 30 percent

#183

Post by HaveCourage » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 4:40 PM UTC

Chestofdraw wrote: post #162

sho wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even increase by dozen of years may result in wars and chaos Care to explain? I don't see why humans living on average a dozen years longer would inevitably lead to "wars and chaos" and a breakdown of social order. Indeed, we saw lifespans increase by two dozen in the last 80 or so years and nothing happened at all. The usual arguments about overpopulation don't seem to apply to developed countries; if anything it'…

I don't think it's fair to say nothing happened at all. Aging populations, coupled with low birth rates, are causing difficult political problems. In my country (UK) pensions are the biggest government expenditure next is healthcare, which the elderly use the most. This obviously has to be paid for so you have two options, raise taxes or increase immigration. Our government chose to increase immigration and a lot of…

Would you rather have the problem of paying for your loved ones to still be around and healthy, or the problem of them being dead right now? Seems like a good problem to have. Imagine if their brains and bodies were still equivalent to 50 years old. You probably couldn't convince them to stop working. I detect lots of bitterness to the young male and foreign and little for old and citizen. Medical progress gets rid of old people too, they just remain young instead of dead.

Re: Scientists engineer mice genomes to lengthen their lifespans by 30 percent

#184

Post by HaveCourage » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 4:47 PM UTC

jjoe wrote: post #147

sho wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even increase by dozen of years may result in wars and chaos Care to explain? I don't see why humans living on average a dozen years longer would inevitably lead to "wars and chaos" and a breakdown of social order. Indeed, we saw lifespans increase by two dozen in the last 80 or so years and nothing happened at all. The usual arguments about overpopulation don't seem to apply to developed countries; if anything it'…

I can think of a few pertinent cases. With every new generation you get fresh perspectives. Old practices die because generations die with them. Can you imagine slavery practices getting a "lifespan increase." I bet the "cold war" mind set works the same way. You rarely see cold war brought up by much younger folks. It's always an old gen rehash. What about a ruthless dictator like Kim Jong Un getting 12 extra years…

Fresh perspectives generate fresh perspectives. Birth doesn't as well, because schools tend to standardize viewpoints as do religions. If birth was a good cure, you wouldn't get regression. Like the dark ages, or what's going on in Iran. Rolling the dice and hoping for a better outcome is inferior to building and advertising better outcomes. It would be easy to dream the pro death people die off and be replaced with more adventurous types, but its not fair to wish for someones death because they disagree with you.

Re: Scientists engineer mice genomes to lengthen their lifespans by 30 percent

#185

Post by HaveCourage » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 4:56 PM UTC

visarga wrote: post #142

dandare wrote: post #126

The consequences of longer lifespan to social order are unimaginable. Even increase by dozen of years may result in wars and chaos, especially if the treatment will not be available to everyone. From where I stand it seems that relatively little resources are spent on the research of consequences of longer lifespan compared with the discussions we have about friendly/enemy AI, machines replacing jobs, universal incom…

Don't worry, the treatment won't be available to all, unless it's a cheap pill with no IP constraints on it. Imagine the profits for the producers of a life extending miracle drug. It would be more like spice on Dune. Hmm... if I recall correctly, the fremens (who had unlimited access to it) were a bloody waring bunch.

It's a common misunderstanding that curing aging can be a pill. Aging is a quite loaded word. It means at least, curing cancer, heart disease, Alzheimer's, cell loss, hardening, muscle loss, vision loss... So what an aging cure really looks like is lots and lots of cures because there's lots and lots of causes. The easy way to categorize what needs fixed is: Cells: too many, too few. Junk: inside and outside cells. Mutations: nuclear and mitochondrial. Finally crosslinking.

Re: Scientists engineer mice genomes to lengthen their lifespans by 30 percent

#186

Post by HaveCourage » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 5:00 PM UTC

wallace_f wrote: post #130

AstralStorm wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would expect a great cultural and scientific renaissance because you could devote a lot more time to creative pursuits. Even if many people are too lazy, the few geniuses with much longer lifespans would turn the world over. An interesting side effect could be that public figures would become more careful, because if you're sunk, you'd be done forever. Plus the shift from old people retirement driven politics. Much…

> I would expect a great cultural and scientific renaissance because you could devote a lot more time to creative pursuits. Even if many people are too lazy, the few geniuses with much longer lifespans would turn the world over. Genius appears to decline with age. Prolonging life would not necessarily preserve genius, even if it preserves life.

Unfortunately, you are correct in that brain deterioration progresses faster than other forms of deterioration, which is why it's smart to focus on it over some other age dependent diseases. Your brain is a part of your body like your heart. Any cure for aging would obviously include the cure for mental deterioration.

Re: Scientists engineer mice genomes to lengthen their lifespans by 30 percent

#187

Post by HaveCourage » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 5:07 PM UTC

closeparen wrote: post #127

HaveCourage wrote: post #51

Summary of pro death arguments re: longevity progress Fairness Only rich people will get it. (no tech has ever done this.) Better to give money to the poor than science. (family,city,state,nation, has proven local investment beats foreign.) Bad for society Dead people make more room for new, other people. (consider going first.) Run out of resources (live people discover/extract/renew better than dead or nonexistant)…

How about: bad ideas get to remain in power for much longer, because the generations of administrators/voters/executives that enforce them don't turn over. Death ensures adaptation. For example, climate change denying oil barons have done much damage to the world, but we can take some comfort in the knowledge that they will soon die (or at least retire) and that their successors will probably be a little more enlight…

It's better to make new productive areas than to fight diminishing returns and force there to be fewer productive areas. The founding of California and the USA are the result of such thinking.

The powerful, propertied generation dying and being replaced by people that look and do nearly the same hasn't cured any of the ills of which you speak so far. The rich have continued to get richer, and the poor richer at a much slower rate, death hasn't solved any of that, nor is it likely too. What you want is better marketing of good ideas, because that actually works. Wishing people dead for disagreeing with you is at least immoral.

Re: Scientists engineer mice genomes to lengthen their lifespans by 30 percent

#188

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 7:04 PM UTC

leereeves wrote: post #47

daemonk wrote: post #18

tldr for biologists out there. They made a transgenic mouse line of doxycycline inducible Yamanaka factors in progeria (LAKI) background. Too high induction lead to mortality and teratomas, which is known. They cyclicly induced the Yamanaka factors and found it reversed signs of aging (prolong lifespan by ~30%)

They didn't test this (or haven't yet) against normal aging in mice, only mice with progeria (unusually rapid aging)?

[deleted]

Re: Scientists engineer mice genomes to lengthen their lifespans by 30 percent

#189

Post by hueving » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 7:18 PM UTC

Jaruzel wrote: post #134

dandare wrote: post #126

The consequences of longer lifespan to social order are unimaginable. Even increase by dozen of years may result in wars and chaos, especially if the treatment will not be available to everyone. From where I stand it seems that relatively little resources are spent on the research of consequences of longer lifespan compared with the discussions we have about friendly/enemy AI, machines replacing jobs, universal incom…

I echo this. We're already over-populated on this planet as it is. Yes there's still a lot of available land, but there are reasons we're not using it either to live on, or to farm - too hostile, too wet, too hot/cold, and the cost of terrafirming those areas is prohibitive. Unless we manage to escape this rock, and find a nice Earth 2.0 out there, extending lifespans is pointless. It's driven by pure selfishness, an…

That's ridiculous. There are vast chunks of land in the US that are perfectly fine to live on, it's just that nobody wants to because the good jobs aren't there (i.e. nearly everything between the coasts).

Re: Scientists engineer mice genomes to lengthen their lifespans by 30 percent

#190

Post by hueving » Fri, Dec 16, 2016, 7:23 PM UTC

waterhouse wrote: post #178

gaius wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you will have no new treatments, and be back to square one.

Adapting a suggestion that I've heard and haven't studied too closely: Find insurance companies that essentially bet that people won't die in the next N years, find very large companies of this sort or form some kind of aggregation of them, and make the case to them that if they spend a bunch of money funding the development of some treatments that work, then they will make a profit because their bets will turn out b…

These companies exist, they sell a product called life insurance...