If you'd choose a more social system where the students costs are paid directly from taxes, taxes are higher, yes but you omit banks. The only thing banks do is collect interest because the people have decided, or have been told, that they can't collectively invest in the education of the next generation. And so their kids pay interest, to banks who do nothing but print the money and write down "you have dept" in return.
U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt
181–190 of 457 posts
Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt
#182This is so obviously a scam that I don't see how it can hold up. Tuition has gone to sky high levels, and who is getting that money? Not the professors, let's get real. They have probably gotten sweet raises, but nowhere near the growth rate of tuition. The armies of "administrators" are getting huge salaries, but the main point of the whole bubble is that it is a great way to proactively enslave a whole new generati…
equal parts administrator and the state, since as I understand it the tuition hikes track funding cuts at the government level for higher ed. that is the real killer. so, do the taxpayers see the money as reduced sales and property tax?
The per-student funding has gone way down as enrollment is way up. In total the funding has gone down less or not at all.
Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt
#183Earlier quoted context omitted.
This sentiment is so bizarre from a European perspective. So the only thing that stops people from getting an education willy nilly is student debt? Or American engineers are all better in some respects than German engineers because of their debt?
I never really said any of that. The reality is that you can get a really good college education for rather cheap in the U.S. if you are smart about it. I could of gone to a local state college for 1/10th the tuition of a private school and received an education at a very similar level. I just feel that a free for all education system (ala Bernie Sanders) would be detrimental. Having things be somewhat exclusive and…
Germany doesn't impose any exams at all. The only limiting factor is that you qualify for university and maybe your grade, if the number of applicants requires it.
There are no exams that need to be passed, no essays need to be written or anything of the sort.
Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt
#184There seems to be a strong sentiment in this thread that the only value provided by education is the contribution to career (e.g. that loans should only be provided for financially viable courses, that studying arts is as useful to one's career as studying finger painting, etc). This just seems so wrong. Optimising for vocational training means you're effectively tuning out the abstract arts and sciences and... oh, t…
Okay, but how does that translate into policy?
Fact 1: Education in the US is very expensive, in large part because the ready availability of loans removes most downwards pressure on prices.
Fact 2: If you are loaned money to obtain a degree which is not economically valued then you will not be able to pay it back.
Fact 3: If you loan people money without expecting people to pay it back, then it's not a loan, it's a grant.
Fact 4: If you offer grants to high school graduates to take non-economically values classes, a lot of them will do so. This pushes up the cost of the education, and pushes down the wages graduates will make, excerbating the problem.
> For that reason these fields absolutely should be subsidised
Perhaps. But in which case by how much, by whom, and in what fashion? Because offhand offering free arts degrees sounds like one of the worst possible ways you could subsidise art as a field, and one of the best ways you can cause a lot of harm to young people while enriching the existing education institutions and not really advancing art at all.
Mind you...
> otherwise art becomes about marketing, journalism becomes about propaganda, and science becomes about start-ups...
Artists, journalists, and scientists have always had to earn a living. To the best of my knowledge, there was no "golden age". We've never subsidized artists (or scientists, or journalists) in the way you say we should; the future you're afraid of "becoming" is our present and past.
Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt
#185Every time I read articles about student loans in the USA, the options are always presented as either the current state, or free tuition. Why are interest free student loans never floated as an option? Here in New Zealand, our student loans are provided by the government and are interest free as long as we reside in New Zealand. It means that people who don't do tertiary education, or who do a trade, don't subsidise…
"Why are interest free student loans never floated as an option?" Imagine what would happen if the US government made student loans interest free. Who would gain, and who would lose? (1) Students could afford to take out larger loans (as the repayments would be more affordable with 0% interest vs. 4.66% interest) (2) As a result of (1) colleges could charge higher tuition fees, without reducing the number of students…
1 and 2 would happen but 3 would necessitate a decision to consciously subsidize the banks since it can just issue treasury bills itself at a much lower interest rate.
Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt
#186Has there been extensive research or trials of corporate sponsorship (or are there any startups exploring this idea)? There are probably some principal/agent issues but by and large why can't Google sponsor some CS students and they sign a 4 year deal with them in return (somewhat similar to sports?).
In some fields, big corporations already compete for talent, why not start the competition a level earlier (internships could be integrated as well).
I can think of a lot of problems and reasons why this won't work...which makes it interesting :) Apart from "won't work for not highly competitive degrees" and "figuring out who to sponsor is as hard or harder than just hiring" and "how do you grantee the people actually stay with the company and are motivated" there's probably a lot more. I think the principle of reciprocality can make it work in principle though.
Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt
#187"While an educated populous is a good thing, the number of those not making payments on their student loan debt as soared."
- what language is that?
Sounds like written by an undereducated populous...
Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt
#188Earlier quoted context omitted.
This sentiment is so bizarre from a European perspective. So the only thing that stops people from getting an education willy nilly is student debt? Or American engineers are all better in some respects than German engineers because of their debt?
I never really said any of that. The reality is that you can get a really good college education for rather cheap in the U.S. if you are smart about it. I could of gone to a local state college for 1/10th the tuition of a private school and received an education at a very similar level. I just feel that a free for all education system (ala Bernie Sanders) would be detrimental. Having things be somewhat exclusive and…
Depending on the course/university there's limited space, of course. The problem is when this "exclusivity" that you mention is purely based on who can pay, that is what's detrimental.
Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt
#189There seems to be a strong sentiment in this thread that the only value provided by education is the contribution to career (e.g. that loans should only be provided for financially viable courses, that studying arts is as useful to one's career as studying finger painting, etc). This just seems so wrong. Optimising for vocational training means you're effectively tuning out the abstract arts and sciences and... oh, t…
There are still people in the US without access to clean water. In some parts of the country, primary and secondary school education is abysmal.
As far as I'm concerned, it's a question of priorities. Sure, I love the humanities, but the government only has so many tax dollars, and studying Shakespeare in university is not a priority.
Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt
#190Earlier quoted context omitted.
I feel like the value of adversity is lost sometimes on HN. We should be especially familiar with it. Earning a high level of income makes life extraordinarily comfortable, to the point where it is easy to become complacent and stop trying to really contribute to society in a meaningful way. Some times a struggle is not a bad thing. Not to the point where one should be homeless or starving of course, but having every…
> Earning a high level of income makes life extraordinarily comfortable, to the point where it is easy to become complacent and stop trying to really contribute to society in a meaningful way. Earning a high level of income in general already signifies that a person is contributing to society in a meaningful way. Their income is reflective of the service provided to others. All corporations exist to better the lives…
> Earning a high level of income in general already signifies that a person is contributing to society in a meaningful way. Their income is reflective of the service provided to others.
Yeahhh no, income is a laughable measure of one's contribution to society. Labor is a market as any other, and salary is a function both of the value provided as well as supply vs. demand. In the Valley, VC-funded technology companies can afford to pay exorbitant salaries but are a gamble as to whether they will provide any net value, as evidenced by their ability or inability to develop a sustainable business. Other distortions exist like rent-seeking or manufactured demand require serious mental gymnastics to see as a contribution to the world but can support high incomes.
> All corporations exist to better the lives of people. Their purpose is to earn profit for shareholders (ultimately, people), but how do they accomplish that? Mostly, by making useful goods or selling useful services.
Taking a page out of Ayn Rand? Corporations exist to enrich their owners, which is great; however providing a useful good or service is a sufficient but not necessary condition of doing so.