Internet Attack Spreads, Disrupting Major Websites • Hacker News Board

Re: Internet Attack Spreads, Disrupting Major Websites

#181

Post by tyre » Sat, Oct 22, 2016, 4:11 AM UTC

Splines wrote: post #148

rayuela wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like I hadn't thought of this as a market failure until reading your post calling it that. You're absolutely right about it. That's exactly what it is and the need for government involvement is quite obvious now. Suppliers are going to need to be held liable for the negative externalities their product offerings create, otherwise we're stuck at an equilibrium point where this situation does not improve.

If ISPs were treated like a utility and charged per bit, customers would have an incentive to ensure that their devices weren't dumping traffic onto the internet. It's rare that you can see a dashboard showing your usage, even rarer to see a dashboard showing your usage, broken down by device.

With ISPs (at least in the US) moving towards data caps, this is becoming a reality. It won't fix the problem.

DDOS attacks via IOT don't have to send much data per request. If my devices are doing an extra 10Mb/hour, I won't notice. 1000 homes is 10Gb/hour and that's just a few blocks in a city. 100,000 homes seems easy to hit, which is a petabyte of data per hour.

It's death by a thousand paper cuts. If my internet bill goes up a dollar per month, it's highly unlikely I'm going to debug my refrigerator to figure out how to stop it.

Re: Internet Attack Spreads, Disrupting Major Websites

#182

Post by unexistance » Sat, Oct 22, 2016, 4:21 AM UTC

traskjd wrote: post #68

gamegod wrote: post #45

Irony alert: > "But technology providers in the United States could suffer blowback. As Dyn fell under recurring attacks on Friday, Mr. York, the chief strategist, said such assaults were the reason so many companies are pushing at least parts of their infrastructure to cloud computing networks, to decentralize their systems and make them harder to attack." Pushing your infrastructure to cloud computing is not decent…

Interestingly, in some ways this is a big selling point of AWS/Azure/Goog. The absolute scale they can handle is way up there. The downside of course, is that whilst their infrastructure can likely handle it, handling the bill associated with 'just scale up your service' could be worse than the attack itself.

so it will be eventually Cloud VS DDoS eh, both can scale indefinitely so the limit is money, which makes the DDoS guys wins, they practically stole CPU/RAM/NET where cloud providers need to buy hardware as usual

Unless we can somehow secure every net-connected devices, ha (I don't know whether to cry or laugh right now)

Re: Internet Attack Spreads, Disrupting Major Websites

#183

Post by nradov » Sat, Oct 22, 2016, 4:29 AM UTC

mancerayder wrote: post #105

Is it confirmed yet that so-called IoT devices were the bots? Bruce was on point if so, arguing a couple weeks ago that accountability needs to happen on the manufacturers: "What was new about the Krebs attack was both the massive scale and the particular devices the attackers recruited. Instead of using traditional computers for their botnet, they used CCTV cameras, digital video recorders, home routers, and other e…

Could the market failure be addressed through private class action suits against manufacturers of insecure IoT devices?

Re: Internet Attack Spreads, Disrupting Major Websites

#184

Post by benmac » Sat, Oct 22, 2016, 4:30 AM UTC

traskjd wrote: post #68

gamegod wrote: post #45

Irony alert: > "But technology providers in the United States could suffer blowback. As Dyn fell under recurring attacks on Friday, Mr. York, the chief strategist, said such assaults were the reason so many companies are pushing at least parts of their infrastructure to cloud computing networks, to decentralize their systems and make them harder to attack." Pushing your infrastructure to cloud computing is not decent…

Interestingly, in some ways this is a big selling point of AWS/Azure/Goog. The absolute scale they can handle is way up there. The downside of course, is that whilst their infrastructure can likely handle it, handling the bill associated with 'just scale up your service' could be worse than the attack itself.

AWS has considerable defenses against DDOS attacks of all types - here's the video from Reinvent 2015 which introduces many of Amazon's defenses as well as best practices - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys0gG1koqJA

Interestingly, the presenter notes that Amazon had seen a drop in DNS as an attack vector in 2015. I asked the presenter (Product Manager) why they hadn't productized the DDoS attack dashboard so you could be aware if you were being attacked (and it was being absorbed by AWS) and his response was that there was insufficient demand at that point to justify the developer staffing. He gave me his card and asked to request the feature so he could us it to make the case internally.

Does anyone here have stories of being successfully DDoS'd on AWS (other than by their own staff :) ?

Re: Internet Attack Spreads, Disrupting Major Websites

#185

Post by lucaspiller » Sat, Oct 22, 2016, 4:38 AM UTC

palunon wrote: post #59

atishay811 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This attack is on the DNS and niṛ in the sites themselves. The sites are working fine. We need better infrastructure for the internet.

Google cloud can host your DNS zones for you.

That's also true of AWS, Digital Ocean, Linode, etc. Hell, you can even host your DNS yourself!

Re: Internet Attack Spreads, Disrupting Major Websites

#186

Post by gamegod » Sat, Oct 22, 2016, 4:41 AM UTC

Symbiote wrote: post #58

gamegod wrote: post #45

Irony alert: > "But technology providers in the United States could suffer blowback. As Dyn fell under recurring attacks on Friday, Mr. York, the chief strategist, said such assaults were the reason so many companies are pushing at least parts of their infrastructure to cloud computing networks, to decentralize their systems and make them harder to attack." Pushing your infrastructure to cloud computing is not decent…

You're correct, it's centralisation, at least for the whole community. It decentralises that one company's DNS -- instead of having one or two DNS servers, perhaps at two sites, they now have 20, at 20 sites. If someone wants to target them, they're probably better protected. But it's the same 20 servers as a million other companies, so the chance of those servers being a target is much greater.

> But it's the same 20 servers as a million other companies, so the chance of those servers being a target is much greater.

Yeah, that's what I was getting at. I feel like my chances of being collateral damage on an attack against someone else is way higher in the cloud.

Even today with GitHub and other SaaS platforms going down, we were all affected.

Re: Internet Attack Spreads, Disrupting Major Websites

#187

Post by gamegod » Sat, Oct 22, 2016, 4:42 AM UTC

intrasight wrote: post #179

gamegod wrote: post #45

Irony alert: > "But technology providers in the United States could suffer blowback. As Dyn fell under recurring attacks on Friday, Mr. York, the chief strategist, said such assaults were the reason so many companies are pushing at least parts of their infrastructure to cloud computing networks, to decentralize their systems and make them harder to attack." Pushing your infrastructure to cloud computing is not decent…

It's harder, but you can distribute your web resources across multiple cloud providers

If GitHub and Twitter are struggling with this, what chance do the rest of us have?

Re: Internet Attack Spreads, Disrupting Major Websites

#188

Post by gamegod » Sat, Oct 22, 2016, 4:46 AM UTC

nradov wrote: post #183

mancerayder wrote: post #105

Is it confirmed yet that so-called IoT devices were the bots? Bruce was on point if so, arguing a couple weeks ago that accountability needs to happen on the manufacturers: "What was new about the Krebs attack was both the massive scale and the particular devices the attackers recruited. Instead of using traditional computers for their botnet, they used CCTV cameras, digital video recorders, home routers, and other e…

Could the market failure be addressed through private class action suits against manufacturers of insecure IoT devices?

And what about software developers? Should we be suing the kernel developers for leaving that privilege escalation bug in for 9 years?

Re: Internet Attack Spreads, Disrupting Major Websites

#189

Post by losteverything » Sat, Oct 22, 2016, 5:17 AM UTC

unexistance wrote: post #182

traskjd wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly, in some ways this is a big selling point of AWS/Azure/Goog. The absolute scale they can handle is way up there. The downside of course, is that whilst their infrastructure can likely handle it, handling the bill associated with 'just scale up your service' could be worse than the attack itself.

so it will be eventually Cloud VS DDoS eh, both can scale indefinitely so the limit is money, which makes the DDoS guys wins, they practically stole CPU/RAM/NET where cloud providers need to buy hardware as usual Unless we can somehow secure every net-connected devices, ha (I don't know whether to cry or laugh right now)

Can you third grade down your comment please?

I find your language to be of high interest like you had a "dUH" moment - which I am ignorant to get myself.

The Sons rays meat

Re: Internet Attack Spreads, Disrupting Major Websites

#190

Post by draw_down » Sat, Oct 22, 2016, 5:20 AM UTC

cm2187 wrote: post #33

msane wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully it's not related threats about hacking during the election. Remember that recently Biden openly threatened cyber attack on Russia if they make any attempt to tamper with the election. Which is completely unprecedented, as is the notion that DOD is openly saying Russia was behind DNC and other attacks.

Also what amazed me is that he would casually threaten to strike Russia. It seems that no one considers these attacks as an act of war. But that's what they are.

There is a strange push in America to go to war with Russia. Of course no one comes right out and says this, because it would be counterproductive. But every time something bad happens to democrats, it gets blamed on Russia. Lots of non-sequitur bellicose talk about Putin all the time.

It reminds me of the run up to the Iraq war. Seems bad.