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When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

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Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you make excellent points. I think where we'd probably disagree is in how quickly (or easily) we'd reach some sort of equillibrium state. You are absolutely right that countries which enjoy greater public benefits would likely enjoy a greater influx of people. But I disagree that that's necessarily a bad thing. I'm a firm believer that there is no such thing as a free lunch. And if residents of Iceland make i…

Thanks for raising some really valid counterpoints to my argument, while framing this as a contest of ideas and not people. I really appreciate it. I imagine others on HN do too. Regarding "I don't see how it is a (globally-speaking) bad thing to have migration make it so that enough people decide to move there to make it less feasible." - to be honest I tend to agree in principle, but I worry that the practical effe…

>I want to live in a liberal democracy with a high standard of living and low carbon emissions (so apartments close to amenities with lots of bike lanes and very few automobiles) with a steady or slowly decreasing population, because there are too many people in the world for it to support. If such a place existed (Denmark comes to mind, or perhaps Japan), it would probably be a desirable target for migrants from all over the world, which would strain the systems that could make such a place possible.

Yes, but I think that's what happens at t=0. And I think that your preferences are probably widely shared by a large contingent of the world population. As it stands, those who enjoy it are either those who had the good fortune to be born in those societies, or those who manage to migrate there through some way or another. Yes, perhaps immigration initially makes it less feasible for those societies to continue operating like that, but it makes it MUCH more difficult to governments who don't support those policies from existing. That's the factor that I put a lot of faith in. The important factor in my eyes is not just the influx of immigrants, but the exodus which will force other countries and governments too look much more like the Danish one (in your example) if they are to survive.

Google and Facebook fight over employees, and the ultimate winners are engineers in place to be hired by those companies. Elsewhere in our economy and the world, we seem to understand that in competitive environments, "customers" win.

Within the US we understand that too! Just take all the states who try to entice businesses through tax policy, old people who move to warmer climates, etc. You don't hear nearly as much complaining about state and local politics (which accounts for a much larger swath of gov't spending than national politics) here in the U.S. And I think some of the issues you mention ARE present. There are municipalities and states that offer friendlier policies in one shape or another, and you do see athletes moving to Florida because of the lack of income tax, for instance. But I think those issues are far, far outweighed by what the country gains by having these "open borders" between the states.

I suspect we don't have more issues because if you don't like something about where you live, you move. This is one of the most distinct things about the U.S. with my experience overseas (I'm from Brazil originally).

For better or worse, accessing a modern economy there means living in one of two cities. Here? I can make a rich matrix of climate, culture, job environment, etc., and find a few candidate cities in which to live in. That's amazing. And I think that's how you get some pretty unique experiences -- Silicon Valley to NYC -- which are all world-class.

With respect to your housing point, I think you are right. But again, I see greater migration as a way to also solve those problems. The influx makes land and housing more valuable in Denmark, which in turns makes more development there more valuable and more feasible. And, conversely, makes places people are leaving less valuable and land there cheaper.

I see it as a way to equate opportunity over the world. And, like in the U.S., no doubt that the steady state will yield places that are very different from one another in terms of culture, or climate, or how it is run by their local government. But the threat of exit will be a great check on their ability to diverge from the will of and preferences of the people.

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#182
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. Racism has become a meaningless accusation, tossed around so lightly that I can conclude nothing when I hear it. Unfortunately, that doesn't leave me a good term for the people like the ones that murdered most of my grandmother's family because of their race.

> I see that the word "racism" has ceased to have meaning. This is called "gaslighting". You have encountered a use of the term "racist" that you think is poor usage. Instead of confining your criticism to the specific usage of the term, you declare any and all uses of the term "meaningless". It's intellectually lazy. Perhaps your definition of racist is "openly and aggressively advocating against one of three or fou…

> This is called "gaslighting"

Incorrect.

    "Gaslighting or gas-lighting is a form of psychological abuse in which a victim is manipulated into doubting his or her own memory, perception, and sanity."
I don't believe that I have attempted to manipulate anyone into doubting their memory, perception, or sanity.

> But rather than stand up for what you believe is a sensible use of the word, you wipe your hands the entire discussion. It's a childish tactic.

I stand by what I said -- If the usage above is valid, then I can infer nothing useful based on the term 'racism'.

To spell it out in full, recall the start of this thread, where someone was accused for racism because they named a policy that was in effect in 1914. _Note that the policy was not called racist. The only objection was the date.

So, based on that usage above, one meaning of racist seems to be the following conjunction:

   'Expressed approval for a policy' AND 'That policy was in place at a time when racism was a problem'
And given that racism has been a problem at any point in time, then the only conclusion that can be drawn is that someone had approved for some policy at some point in time.

If this is a valid meaning for racism, then someone being called racist gives me no information about the person. I don't believe this is a useful meaning.

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#183
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ryanair, I guess. Verona to Brussels is 8 Euros. A "meal deal" on the plane is 10.

That's not even the cheapest. I see Timisoara, Romania to London for £4.49, or US$5.80. That's a 2.5 hour flight! (No baggage, no food, but that's the real price -- the airlines aren't allowed the "hidden fees" any more.) See, for example, Ryanair's London Stansted to Anywhere -- and note that a train (£19) or bus (I'd guess about £8-9) from Stansted to London will cost more than some of these fares: https://www.ryan…

Timisoara - Luton is a ticket I've bought many times and never for less than £20 (usual price is more like £50). Most of the times, those are clickbaity prices.

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#184
post #29

The UK has obviously seen a lot of debate about immigration recently, around the Brexit referendum. I've often felt like non-EU immigration was the elephant in the room during all this. 'Leave' voters have often been portrayed as racist bigots by liberal 'Remain' voters. (I'm one of the latter, and I've been guilty of this myself at times). But if we extend the same logic to the whole world, isn't the EU basically a…

> But if we extend the same logic to the whole world, isn't the EU basically a racist organisation? Why should a French, German or Romanian arbitrarily have special rights to enter my country, while an Indian, Mexican or Nigerian is subjected to ever harsher visa rules?

I've seen this mentioned by many people; all of which said they'd voted Remain, but argue in favour of Leave in every discussion. Interesting nonetheless.

Answering the question itself: A French a German or a Romanian have the right because their countries reached and agreement with the UK. The other countries have not. That agreement is called EU.

I can't see the hypocrisy in that. If the UK doesn't like that agreement anymore they're free to walk away. Oh, wait... :-)

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#185
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The freedom of movement within the EU is definitely not based on race, but on the citizenship of any of the Schengen Area countries. That's true, but can't it still be considered racist? It may not be direct, intentional racism, but the net result of UK policy is that white people can enter the UK much easier than black or brown people. If I require that my employees be at least 6 feet tall, isn't that a sexist hir…

> If I require that my employees be at least 6 feet tall, is that a sexist hiring policy? Do people who are at least 6 feet tall make better employees? If you require loan applicants to have income sufficient to make the loan payments, and that is true of more white applicants than black applicants, is that a racist policy?

It would be racist to assume a black person might not have insufficient income, just because he's black and someone arbitrarily made an income statistic based in race.

You could work that same data to group people by age, gender, political bias, shoe size, arm length, eye color, favourite sport, etc and discriminate against many, many things :-) but actually you should only look at the income and decide on that.

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#186
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The freedom of movement within the EU is definitely not based on race, but on the citizenship of any of the Schengen Area countries. That's true, but can't it still be considered racist? It may not be direct, intentional racism, but the net result of UK policy is that white people can enter the UK much easier than black or brown people. If I require that my employees be at least 6 feet tall, isn't that a sexist hir…

> If I require that my employees be at least 6 feet tall, is that a sexist hiring policy? Do people who are at least 6 feet tall make better employees? If you require loan applicants to have income sufficient to make the loan payments, and that is true of more white applicants than black applicants, is that a racist policy?

[deleted]

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#187
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody just "deserves" anything [just for being born. Someone has to work hard for everything]

Yet you claimed precisely that a few comments above.

Cognitive dissonance.

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#188
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find that Chris Rock has the best summary of it with his "I'm American" routine: "What, you think you’re better than somebody from France ’cause you came out of a pussy in Detroit?" Nothing specifically American about it though. Many people in France think they're better than Syrian refugees because they're born from a pussy in Paris. Full transcript: http://www.cswap.com/2004/Chris_Rock:_Never_Scared/cap/en/25...

I agree that country of origin is 100 percent luck. That doesn't mean all cultures are equal though.

Mine is better than yours, my government told me!

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm concerned about opening up the borders before we understand why some countries are corrupt and others aren't. In a place like the US, trying to bribe a police officer is unexpected, and everyone who gets involved in the situation ends up working to punish those involved in the bribery. In a place like Venezuela, bribing a police officer is expected, and everyone who gets involved in the situation ends up getting…

That's a really interesting point. As an immigrant myself, I'd say that one of the objections to immigration (generally-speaking) which I find has the most sway is something along the lines that you have mentioned. I genuinely believe that some of the "negative" things countries experience are directly related to certain cultural norms/values that many of their citizens may share, and that by moving to a different co…

More immigration will certainly help the countries like Venezuela, whose citizens can simply escape to better places.

But at the same time, it will be bad for the host countries whose social safety nets will be strained and whose citizens will now have to put up with masses with vastly different values. And the interaction will not always be pleasant (eg. Cologne incident in Germany earlier this year).

So my question to you is - why do you think its a better solution to improve condition of some societies at the expense of some other societies?

Re: When world leaders thought you shouldn't need passports or visas

#190
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh the pro-brexit people probably feel they're brown anyways.

Based on what - your own prejudice? I think people in Britain, and indeed many 'white' countries, are less bothered by the colour of one's skin than the tone of their culture and intent behind their immigrating. If you're not coming here to integrate, but just coming for money and with no thought of being part of my culture, why on Earth would I joyously welcome you? What would be said if I were to move to somewhere…

Funny a Brit says that :-)

Brits are the less likely to speak Spanish among the immigrant community in Spain. Most of them don't speak the language at all and have no will to ever do it, even though they plan on dying in Spain. They stick together in all-English ghettos and do nothing to integrate in the local culture.

Based on your rules: Do you want Spain to send something between 350k and 800k pensioners back to the UK? I'm sure the NHS would be thrilled.

Of course, the difference is that Brits are "wealthy" compared to someone from a poorer country. It always comes down to money and never to race or culture.

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