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Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

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Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#181

Post by rhino369 »

stouset wrote: post #154
rhino369 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are conflating fact and opinion. Someone's opinion on Snowden isn't necessarily based on facts. You can be objectively wrong about a fact, but you can't be objective wrong about an opinion. >You can't hold the simultaneous opinions that Snowden was a traitor who should be punished and that the NSA was wrong for conducting illegal wiretaps. Sure I can. Snowden could have leaked one single document that would blow…

Snowden has only leaked information to the press, so they could determine what is newsworthy and relevant to the American people.

Newsworthy isn't the standard for whistleblowing. If it was they'd let journalists do research on classified documents.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#182

Post by rhino369 »

freehunter wrote: post #147
rhino369 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are conflating fact and opinion. Someone's opinion on Snowden isn't necessarily based on facts. You can be objectively wrong about a fact, but you can't be objective wrong about an opinion. >You can't hold the simultaneous opinions that Snowden was a traitor who should be punished and that the NSA was wrong for conducting illegal wiretaps. Sure I can. Snowden could have leaked one single document that would blow…

I believe opinions do have to be based on fact. That's the difference between opinion and faith. People have faith that God exists, even if they don't have proof. But opinions are really just your interpretation of the facts you're presented with. Opinions change as you get new facts, faith persists even in the face of facts. If you believe something even though fact says otherwise, that is not an opinion. It's faith…

It's more than just interpreting facts. People make value judgements too. A lot of the pro Snowden support is based on a belief that transparency is a good thing. That isn't a universal truth. Reasonable people can disagree.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#183

Post by kafkaesq »

tptacek wrote: post #178
kafkaesq wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would: I think that it indicates a propensity to exaggerate. Perhaps you would, but if so you'd be placing yourself at odds with the consensus definition of what constitutes a "broken bone". Not that it specifically includes "stress fractures": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bone_fracture Moreover, I know folks who've had far worse than just shin splints (broken legs, in fact) I'd continue, but you're going in circl…

No. "Shin splints" is a symptom, not a diagnosis. Tibial stress fractures are a cause of shin splints. A lot of people who have "shin splints" have, in fact, tibial stress fractures. The first line treatment for bilateral tibial stress fractures is "stop working out for 4-12 weeks". They are apparently common in basic training (and diagnosis is apparently getting better, so that a lot of people that would normally ha…

Snowden's discharge report makes no mention of "shin splints". It unambiguously mentions "stress fracture", which is unambiguously a form of a "broken bone" by colloquial definition (being as there is no medical definition).

The whole point is that there's no way one can reasonably claim Snowden was exaggerating or misstating the reason for his discharge. The Committee's assertions on this point were just a smear, and a pretty crude one at that.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#184

Post by tptacek »

kafkaesq wrote: post #183
tptacek wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. "Shin splints" is a symptom, not a diagnosis. Tibial stress fractures are a cause of shin splints. A lot of people who have "shin splints" have, in fact, tibial stress fractures. The first line treatment for bilateral tibial stress fractures is "stop working out for 4-12 weeks". They are apparently common in basic training (and diagnosis is apparently getting better, so that a lot of people that would normally ha…

Snowden's discharge report makes no mention of "shin splints". It unambiguously mentions "stress fracture", which is unambiguously a form of a "broken bone" by colloquial definition (being as there is no medical definition). The whole point is that there's no way one can reasonably claim Snowden was exaggerating or misstating the reason for his discharge. The Committee's assertions on this point were just a smear, an…

This is like saying someone wasn't washed out because of a persistent sore throat but was in fact diagnosed with chronic pharyngitis. I mean, OK. Sure.

Unfortunately, your argument is made more difficult by the original narrative of Snowden's story, which claims he "broke both legs in a training accident". Were tibial stress fractures what anyone conjured up from that description?

Both sides --- Gellman and the House committee --- spun this particular issue. Both sides should have provided more context.

Personally, I also think both Gellman and the House report are litigating the dumbest, least important aspect of the Snowden events. I don't really care what kind of person Snowden is, and I don't understand what his personality has to do with public policy. I'm surprised Gellman conceded this dimension of the debate --- especially because a lot of the facts aren't really on his side, in the persuasive sense. Surely Snowden was more sympathetic when we thought he'd been in a pair of casts after a parachute mishap. The House report succeeded in re-casting this part of the story, with some assistance by Gellman.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#185

Post by nickpsecurity »

rhino369 wrote: post #134
nickpsecurity wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to be either weak-minded or very selective about reading up on these things to not think he did some good that's reported in the article. Here's a few: 1. They kept promising it was just metadata they were collecting. Alexander got specific on all extra services they weren't collecting on. This was lies. 2. Another lies under oath to Congress about same thing. 3. They said it was just selective stuff to find…

The NSA isn't an antiterrorism agency. It's a general purpose spy agency. If you thought that it only was collecting meta data for terrorists purposes, that's on you. That was never the purpose of the agency and I'm not really sure how anyone could believe it was. What did you think they were doing during the Cold War? It's also common knowledge that allies spy on each. America's biggest counter-intelligence threat i…

You're missing the point of the comment. I know what NSA does and Im fine with collecting foreign intelligence. The point is they asked for broad powers, including over Americans, with secrecy and immunity. The stated reason for these was stopping terrorist threat. Actually, it was originally a USAP that nobody even agreed to that they said was about terrorism after initial leaks. They also said only collecting metadata and that it contained nothing that would worry people.

Such systematic deception of American people, Congress, courts, etc is a problem. That they were targeting Americans themselves while saying they werent is bigger. That two leaders committed perjury but dont get punished makes it worse.

This isnt some authorized action conducting itself ethically, effectively, and accountably. It's been opposite across the board. And the leakers are only reason we knew.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#186

Post by dragonwriter »

tptacek wrote: post #59
tvon wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly do not know who to believe, but a counter to the report: https://tcf.org/content/commentary/house-intelligence-commit...

I hadn't read this and generally admire Gellman. Thanks for the link. We can analyze the claims Gellman makes here, though, and further our understanding of the controversy. I believe these are all of them: * The House report claims Snowden lied saying he left military training due to broken legs, and instead washed out due to "shin splints". Gellman objects, saying he has a documented diagnosis for Snowden saying he…

> The House report claims Snowden lied saying he left military training due to broken legs, and instead washed out due to "shin splints". Gellman objects, saying he has a documented diagnosis for Snowden saying he was discharged with "bilaterial tibial stress fractures". But tibial stress fractures are a form --- a common form --- of shin splint.

A stress fracture is a broken bone. Tibial stress fractures are (among the more severe and longer-healing) manifestations of medial tibial stress syndrome ("shin splints"). So, Gellman's evidence is consistent with the House reports claim that Snowden washed out due to "shin splints", but nevertheless rebuts the House reports claim that Snowden lied about broken legs.

Essentially, the House report is itself lying in a fairly brazen fashion (and counting on ignorance of the meaning of the terms used to get away with it) by claiming that they can paint something as a lie based on a fact which is itself entirely consistent with the claim it is supposed to demonstrate is a lie.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#187

Post by dragonwriter »

tptacek wrote: post #173
ScottBurson wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if Snowden wanted to be in Ecuador, he'd be in Ecuador I think this is very naïve. The US wanted him very badly, and we can throw our weight around pretty well. [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evo_Morales_grounding_incident

Could you better explain what you're trying to say here? How is it that the US can prevent Snowden from boarding a plane in Moscow?

> How is it that the US can prevent Snowden from boarding a plane in Moscow?

The US can't prevent Snowden from boarding a plan in Moscow. (Well, I mean, there are all kinds of means by which it might attempt to do so, but no one in this thread has suggested that they would be likely to use them.)

It can, and would be far more likely to, OTOH, use its influence to a prevent a plane from Moscow from reaching Ecuador without being forced to the ground, searched for Snowden, etc., if Snowden did board it (or was suspected to have done so.)

Which is exactly what happened (except, of course, that Snowden had not actually boarded the plane, despite the US suspicion that he had, and that the destination was Bolivia, not Ecuador) in the Evo Morales grounding incident referenced upthread, so I'm somewhat surprised that you didn't understand the fairly direct implication.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#188

Post by tptacek »

dragonwriter wrote: post #186
tptacek wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hadn't read this and generally admire Gellman. Thanks for the link. We can analyze the claims Gellman makes here, though, and further our understanding of the controversy. I believe these are all of them: * The House report claims Snowden lied saying he left military training due to broken legs, and instead washed out due to "shin splints". Gellman objects, saying he has a documented diagnosis for Snowden saying he…

> The House report claims Snowden lied saying he left military training due to broken legs, and instead washed out due to "shin splints". Gellman objects, saying he has a documented diagnosis for Snowden saying he was discharged with "bilaterial tibial stress fractures". But tibial stress fractures are a form --- a common form --- of shin splint. A stress fracture is a broken bone. Tibial stress fractures are (among…

I addressed this downthread:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12535114

I think both sides are spinning. It's clear to me how the House Report lawyers Snowden's training history, but where you see Gellman rebutting a House Report claim that no bone fractures were involved in Snowden's separation from the army, I see Gellman failing to acknowledge that a tibial stress fractures are a common medical diagnosis for "shin splints".

I think it's clearer in light of Snowden's original claim to the Guardian that he left training after "breaking both legs in a training accident" (it is possible, but unlikely, that Snowden acquired stress fractions as a result of a single discrete training event --- but Snowden was getting a lot of mileage out of the ambiguity).

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#189

Post by dragonwriter »

tptacek wrote: post #178
kafkaesq wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would: I think that it indicates a propensity to exaggerate. Perhaps you would, but if so you'd be placing yourself at odds with the consensus definition of what constitutes a "broken bone". Not that it specifically includes "stress fractures": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bone_fracture Moreover, I know folks who've had far worse than just shin splints (broken legs, in fact) I'd continue, but you're going in circl…

No. "Shin splints" is a symptom, not a diagnosis. Tibial stress fractures are a cause of shin splints. A lot of people who have "shin splints" have, in fact, tibial stress fractures. The first line treatment for bilateral tibial stress fractures is "stop working out for 4-12 weeks". They are apparently common in basic training (and diagnosis is apparently getting better, so that a lot of people that would normally ha…

> "Shin splints" is a symptom, not a diagnosis.

"Shin splints" is a diagnosis, in that its the popular name for medial tibial stress syndrome.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#190

Post by tptacek »

dragonwriter wrote: post #187
tptacek wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you better explain what you're trying to say here? How is it that the US can prevent Snowden from boarding a plane in Moscow?

> How is it that the US can prevent Snowden from boarding a plane in Moscow? The US can't prevent Snowden from boarding a plan in Moscow. (Well, I mean, there are all kinds of means by which it might attempt to do so, but no one in this thread has suggested that they would be likely to use them.) It can, and would be far more likely to, OTOH, use its influence to a prevent a plane from Moscow from reaching Ecuador wi…

How would the US even know who was on a flight from Moscow? If you believe Assange, the reason for the Morales incident was that Assange leaked false information to make that happen.

Furthermore, what does any of this have to do with Snowden's suspended passport? The passport isn't what's keeping him in Russia. I think the two plausible things that might be are: (1) Snowden, (2) Russia. You think there's a third? Can you explain it in some detail?

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