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Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about toxic work environment

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Re: Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about toxic work environment

#181

Post by mthoms »

laurenbee wrote: post #78
mthoms wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to diminish any of the other claims but I found this one to be a bit of an eye roller - Describing another incident, she wrote, "I was walking back to my cube from the break room and passed a group of managers exiting a meeting. The Area Manager told me to smile as I walked past." "While this is a small thing, it was notable as this is one of the most commonly reported forms of subtle sexism." No matter how hard…

By asking/telling someone to smile, one is basically saying, "You should look more pleasant for my benefit." I can't see asking someone to smile being appropriate in a workplace setting unless the person is in a customer-facing role and it affects job performance. The sexist part is that it seems to happen far more often to women than to men.

That's quite an assumption (that it has anything to do with physical appearance).

It's equally possible that it was intended as a shorthand for "cheer up, it's not that bad" or "try to keep your chin up". Both of which actually indicate that the speaker cares about their colleague.

Sure, I can see contexts where it would be inappropriate to say but that doesn't make it always inappropriate to say.

Re: Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about toxic work environment

#182

Post by mthoms »

rpdillon wrote: post #179
laurenbee wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By asking/telling someone to smile, one is basically saying, "You should look more pleasant for my benefit." I can't see asking someone to smile being appropriate in a workplace setting unless the person is in a customer-facing role and it affects job performance. The sexist part is that it seems to happen far more often to women than to men.

> bascially saying "You should look more pleasant for my benefit." Perhaps not. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/smile-it-could-mak... Tone of voice and mannerisms tell a much fuller story, though.

Exactly this. Context is everything. Human communication is very nuanced.

Re: Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about toxic work environment

#183

Post by mthoms »

shepardrtc wrote: post #88
dalerus wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, I had no idea people would interpret this as sexual harassment. I say this to both men and women on my teams that look like they are having a rough day. I'll remove that from things I say. Edit: I don't just say "Smile", usually there is more context to the conversation and usually ends with me trying to see if I can help fix the problem(if it's work related).

You should absolutely try to help cheer people up and fix their problems. Nothing wrong with that. But there's a difference between helping someone feel something and telling them to feel something.

Have you considered that it might not be a command? Human communication is much more nuanced than just the words on their own would indicate.

Where I'm from it's commonly meant as shorthand for "cheer up, it's not that bad" or "try to keep your chin up". Both of which actually indicate that the speaker cares about their colleague.

Re: Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about toxic work environment

#184

Post by GFK_of_xmaspast »

applethrow2 wrote: post #96

I'm risking a lot here... Apple employee here: I only want to provide context. None of us want a toxic environment. We, at Apple, pride ourselves on the fact that we are accepting of all backgrounds, nationalities, genders, religions. I, personally, have struggled with ensuring a diverse set of folks on my team or all backgrounds. We love the fact that we're helping to lead the industry with regard to diversity. And…

I'm going to remove this post. Based on applethrow2's description and the choice of "Danielle" as an alias, I assumed that they were AMAB, aka a "transwoman", aka a woman, but as DisraeliG points out one could have made the opposite assumption.

Re: Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about toxic work environment

#185

Post by GFK_of_xmaspast »

MrLeftHand wrote: post #145
eli wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rape jokes should not be told at work, period.

Rape goes both ways. Men and women can get raped. Someone telling rape jokes can be disgusting and inappropriate, but it will stay as a joke. Agree, a workplace is not a good place to tell these. In fact there might not be a good place for it. Also, if we go further down the rabbit hole and say that rape jokes promote rape, then we can start saying that video games promote violence, etc... My concern is to have someo…

If you don't want to get fired for making a rape joke at work, there's a pretty easy solution to that. (Spoiler: it's "don't make a rape joke at work.")

Re: Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about toxic work environment

#186

Post by akshayB »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #33
akshayB wrote: post #22

Problems like this can happen in any company and this includes Apple as well. Since Apple is one of the biggest Tech companies people are going to make a big deal about it. But it is a big failure if managers/management fail to take actions. The immediate manager should be fired in this case since he or she failed to take any action or involve HR or upper management

Step one: execute the manager. Are there any intermediate disciplinary steps that could occur? People make mistakes all the time, should we hang them out to dry on the first instance?

People make mistakes all time but having said that there are level of how bad things can be.

Personally I feel this is the worst thing you can do to co-worker.

Re: Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about toxic work environment

#187

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

akshayB wrote: post #186
TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Step one: execute the manager. Are there any intermediate disciplinary steps that could occur? People make mistakes all the time, should we hang them out to dry on the first instance?

People make mistakes all time but having said that there are level of how bad things can be. Personally I feel this is the worst thing you can do to co-worker.

I'm not clear on what you think the worst thing you can do to a co-worker is.

I just skimmed the article again, and it says something about the lady being in a room for meeting with a bunch of men and them all joking about being "dismissive about their wives" and that a manager told her to "smile as I walked past".

I must have missed a memo somewhere along the line. When did saying "smile" to someone become "one of the most commonly reported forms of subtle sexism."

Perhaps you were referring to something else, in which case I apologise.

Re: Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about toxic work environment

#188

Post by justin66 »

mthoms wrote: post #183
shepardrtc wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should absolutely try to help cheer people up and fix their problems. Nothing wrong with that. But there's a difference between helping someone feel something and telling them to feel something.

Have you considered that it might not be a command ? Human communication is much more nuanced than just the words on their own would indicate. Where I'm from it's commonly meant as shorthand for "cheer up, it's not that bad" or "try to keep your chin up". Both of which actually indicate that the speaker cares about their colleague.

> Human communication is much more nuanced than just the words on their own would indicate.

Said the guy who further up the thread said he "can't fathom how that could possibly be construed as sexist."

Re: Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about toxic work environment

#189

Post by justin66 »

forgottenpass wrote: post #156
eor wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you ever say that to a male colleague? Would anyone?

Would anyone? Yup. Back when I was dealing with depression, I heard it all the time. "Smile" and "Cheer up" are still two of the most rage-inducing things anyone can say to me. It's just one of those things about appearance I have to roll with. I also don't get to show up barefoot, with no t-shirt and just wearing boardshorts. So I play along and part of that is acting much happier and more amenable than I really am.…

> "Smile" and "Cheer up" are still two of the most rage-inducing things anyone can say to me.

I'm not dealing with clinical depression but I can see what you mean. If I'm upset enough about something that it is visible, the last thing I want is someone telling me to "cheer up."

I guess I'm fortunate never to have worked with the kind of people (commissioned sales people? politicians? child molesters? I mean, I can't even imagine) who would notice I'm upset and tell me to "smile."

Re: Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about toxic work environment

#190

Post by scott_s »

cpncrunch wrote: post #172
scott_s wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rape jokes are obviously unacceptable.

No more obviously unacceptable than bomb/murder jokes, both of which are pretty common.

Rape jokes are obviously unacceptable because they would violate even the flimsiest of sexual harassment policies.
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