Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry • Hacker News Board

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#181

Post by ixtli » Tue, May 03, 2016, 2:51 PM UTC

nowprovision wrote: post #158

stronglikedan wrote: post #133

I'm apparently in the minority, but, after reading the article, I still maintain that there is never a reason to steal from your fellow man. The potential for abuse due to hunger being subjective notwithstanding, there are social programs in place to accommodate the needy. Do they not have these programs in Italy? I am a very compassionate, empathetic (to a fault) person, but I just don't see the justification for th…

I bet you've been pretty privileged in grand scheme of things, university, regular jobs, maybe the lowest point has been backpacking etc... Parent have at least one car, yawn yawn yawn.. No one is stealing from you, they are stealing from a supermarket. Privileged people always seem to think in black and white, theft is theft never an excuse blah blah, quite often making the cliche mistake of associating morality wit…

I think the reason why people have a hard time understanding what you're saying is because unless you've experienced _systemic_ difficulty in your life it's very hard to differentiate it from _personal_ difficulty. Put in a less rigorous way, if you've never truly had to fight against a system that seems constructed to see you fail it would be hard to understand how this is different from, and much worse than, difficulty that stems from smaller, instantaneous issues that present roadblocks or troubles in your life.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#182

Post by sbuttgereit » Tue, May 03, 2016, 2:51 PM UTC

delecti wrote: post #46

garyrob wrote: post #30

It's a little hard to understand how this ruling won't cause a certain degree of chaos. Can any hungry, homeless person now steal food from any store in Italy without repercussion? Certainly as a matter of compassion, this ruling can be argued as being reasonable, but how can it work as a practical matter?

Also, surely the store from which he stole is still victimized by the theft. Is every supermarket now de facto required to set up small food pantries for the poor to protect themselves from theft?

Nevermind the fact that in poorer areas, the likelihood of "justifiable theft" under this doctrine, one would have to imagine, is greater.

Consumption in the absence of real production is not sustainable.

At some point the reduction in margins means the shop worker/repairman/etc that would be paid for his work no longer can be supported/afforded, adding to the poor. At some point shop owners, current and would be, would choose not to do business in then-marginal districts of town: the underserved and marginally poor would be more likely to be further underserved and see the balance tip towards poverty.

All things being equal, there is nothing wrong with compassion. But there are other, better ways. This ruling is neither compassionate, moral, nor ultimately effective. When one considers the unseen consequences of this sort of thinking, along with the abandonment of a legitimate purpose of government, in this myopic ruling, one can only marvel at the direction of Italian society.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#183

Post by eveningcoffee » Tue, May 03, 2016, 2:52 PM UTC

stronglikedan wrote: post #133

I'm apparently in the minority, but, after reading the article, I still maintain that there is never a reason to steal from your fellow man. The potential for abuse due to hunger being subjective notwithstanding, there are social programs in place to accommodate the needy. Do they not have these programs in Italy? I am a very compassionate, empathetic (to a fault) person, but I just don't see the justification for th…

I think you are right!

We should provide aid for people who are in danger of starvation, but it does not give anybody right to steal from fellow human.

I have a personal experience with possible abuse.

I saw a man, probably a foreign (so he is probably not supposed to be familiar with local aid system), with a sign that he needs money for food because he is starving and he indeed did not look alright.

After considering the situation (well, to be honest he can be pretending), I decided to give the man 10 euros because if he really is starving, he should not stay there to collect small coins, but also as a test, such that he could be given further directions when he really is in need.

So, he took the money, hid it and continued his act.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#184

Post by sageikosa » Tue, May 03, 2016, 2:52 PM UTC

celticninja wrote: post #168

sageikosa wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Carrying capacity has no place in the calculation of the value of need.

Not sure what you are trying to say.

I'm OK with that

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#185

Post by delecti » Tue, May 03, 2016, 2:52 PM UTC

gedrap wrote: post #141

omegaham wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same thing happens at restaurants. If a restaurant gives away excess food to employees at the end of the night, you're guaranteeing that employees will then cook excess food to take home a shitload. As the saying goes, "This is why we can't have nice things."

>>> As the saying goes, "This is why we can't have nice things." Nah, it's just basic human nature. Would be really naive to expect something different.

I don't think it's unfair to say "Human nature is why we can't have nice things."

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#186

Post by WalterSear » Tue, May 03, 2016, 2:53 PM UTC

sethhochberg wrote: post #155

rootlocus wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Beggars ask for help in the streets, but I personally can't help each and every one of them. You may be sympathetic, but how is the homeless man supposed to find you when he needs your help?

In theory that is the whole point of taxpayer funded support programs... we can't all be there, but we do all pay taxes for the specific purpose of having a better society (including things like food banks, soup kitchens, etc for people in need).

In theory, sure.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#187

Post by DonaldFisk » Tue, May 03, 2016, 2:53 PM UTC

lorenzhs wrote: post #70

pc86 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Les Misérables Edit: With appreciation to lorenzhs

Well if you're going to be pedantic, at least get it right - it's "Les Misérables"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muphry's_law

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#188

Post by Intermernet » Tue, May 03, 2016, 2:53 PM UTC

kbart wrote: post #39

Intermernet wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>according to such logic, a homeless person could also invade my home and sleep in my bed, because he can't afford his own. Not quite, a homeless person could invade an empty home and sleep in that bed. This is done all the time, and is somewhat covered by squatter's rights. It's currently assumed that greater than 15% of the world's population are squatters. [1] Squatting is the action of occupying an abandoned or u…

What you've described is more akin to gathering discarded food in the back of supermarkets and restaurants, not taking it (stealing) from the rightful owner.

The original article is about about someone stealing food from a supermarket. Yes, the supermarket is the rightful owner, but they aren't going to actually consume the food.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#189

Post by protomyth » Tue, May 03, 2016, 2:53 PM UTC

nowprovision wrote: post #158

stronglikedan wrote: post #133

I'm apparently in the minority, but, after reading the article, I still maintain that there is never a reason to steal from your fellow man. The potential for abuse due to hunger being subjective notwithstanding, there are social programs in place to accommodate the needy. Do they not have these programs in Italy? I am a very compassionate, empathetic (to a fault) person, but I just don't see the justification for th…

I bet you've been pretty privileged in grand scheme of things, university, regular jobs, maybe the lowest point has been backpacking etc... Parent have at least one car, yawn yawn yawn.. No one is stealing from you, they are stealing from a supermarket. Privileged people always seem to think in black and white, theft is theft never an excuse blah blah, quite often making the cliche mistake of associating morality wit…

I've not been privileged all my life. I have a dislike for fish because of some of things and situations we were in.

It is never, ever ok to steal. Stealing from a supermarket is stealing from a person or people. Just because you cannot name who is affected doesn't mean it isn't people. It is black and white. The morality and legality are in alignment in this regard. This whole "shades of grey" leads to the blackness that destroys people and civilizations.

The whole point of government social programs is to provide for survival. There are organizations that provide and places to go.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#190

Post by ino » Tue, May 03, 2016, 2:55 PM UTC

stronglikedan wrote: post #133

I'm apparently in the minority, but, after reading the article, I still maintain that there is never a reason to steal from your fellow man. The potential for abuse due to hunger being subjective notwithstanding, there are social programs in place to accommodate the needy. Do they not have these programs in Italy? I am a very compassionate, empathetic (to a fault) person, but I just don't see the justification for th…

When you're starving and alone, you're not the same person. You can feel the civility, bon-ton and good education vanishing, you don't even think about it. People will give you food if they see you in this state. If you can't get it any other way, you will steal.