Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect • Hacker News Board

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#181

Post by gkya » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 4:58 PM UTC

studentrob wrote: post #176

nl wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's probably worth noting that I don't think @gkya is supporting Erdogan. He is merely pointing out that his actions in attempting to censor foreign media have motives which aren't obvious. When one looks at his actions in the light of those motives his actions make a lot of sense. Without those motives his actions appear stupid.

> It's probably worth noting that I don't think @gkya is supporting Erdogan Thanks, I see that now. Some of @gkya's words sounded like they take the opposite viewpoint, such as, >> Speech should not be regulated in any ways >> Freedom of speech does not mean irresponsible and banale flow of whatever one thinks. >> freedom of speech must not mean that one can be reckless, inconsiderate and demeaning. It reads like it…

I'm sorry if I've been unclear. I do not in any ways support Erdogan. Though I insist that freedom of speech does not mean that one can be irresponsible of what he says.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#182

Post by gorkemyurt » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 4:58 PM UTC

Erdogan is loving this New York Times article right now.. This is exactly what he needs.. A so called non-muslim enemy to rally his supporters against her. Somehow he made his supporters believe USA Russia Iran and Israel are all supporters of PKK (Kurds) at the same time. Turks on average read 1 book every 10 years. I don't blame Erdogan, I blame the generation came before us not to educate themselves.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#183

Post by egeozcan » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 5:05 PM UTC

gorkemyurt wrote: post #182

Erdogan is loving this New York Times article right now.. This is exactly what he needs.. A so called non-muslim enemy to rally his supporters against her. Somehow he made his supporters believe USA Russia Iran and Israel are all supporters of PKK (Kurds) at the same time. Turks on average read 1 book every 10 years. I don't blame Erdogan, I blame the generation came before us not to educate themselves.

I generally agree with your point. However, I have to nitpick a bit:

> Turks on average read 1 book every 10 years.

How did you end up with this conclusion? http://mentalfloss.com/article/55344/which-country-reads-mos...

> I blame the generation came before us not to educate themselves.

Do you really believe that your generation is properly educated?

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#184

Post by erbo » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 5:07 PM UTC

tychuz wrote: post #3

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

I came here to say, "How do you say 'Streisand effect' in Turkish?"

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#185

Post by gkya » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 5:20 PM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #166

gkya wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoting my grandparent comment: > In the end, though, this should be left to the authors will, to decide whether or not it is moral to say what he says. Because when state is involved the slightest, it can be involved more. Who decides what incites violence? So to this I agree: > Actually, it is. Freedom of speech can't be whatever seems civil to each person, it's a binary issue. Either you have it or you don't. What…

"One cannot say anything and go by." Yes you CAN. Nobody has a right not to be offended. You don't have to be mindful of what you say. That's not freedom of speech.

You have to be mindful of what you say, that is, you mustn't say things you can't prove. You mustn't lie. Or else, you'll be disproved, and announced publicly as a liar. I don't say that you are not free to lie, though, what I say is, in this case, by lying, you accept such consequences. By saying something, you're responsible to its truth.

You're free to insult, but you don't have to. If you do so, people will get offended, and you'll be excluded, ignored, or insulted back at. Again, you're free to insult, but there will be consequences, and by insulting you take the responsibility, and accept being excluded, or insulted at.

And everybody has a right to not be offended, which has to protect them from bullying, demeaning, racism, etc., called the "right to human dignity":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dignity

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:120...

> Human dignity is inviolable. It must be respected and protected. (Article 1)

> Everyone has the right to respect for his or her physical and mental integrity. (Article 3/1)

> The right to conscientious objection is recognised, in accordance with the national laws governing the exercise of this right. (Article 10/2)

> Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. (Article 11)

> Any discrimination based on any ground such as sex, race, colour, ethnic or social origin, genetic features, language, religion or belief, political or any other opinion, membership of a national minority, property, birth, disability, age or sexual orientation shall be prohibited. (Article 21/1)

> Within the scope of application of the Treaties and without prejudice to any of their specific provisions, any discrimination on grounds of nationality shall be prohibited. (Article 21/2)

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#186

Post by cm3 » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 5:24 PM UTC

jbmorgado wrote: post #84

cm3 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind that Turkey has often and for long stretches been a buffer/ally between the west and middle and far east. Right before the French and English invaded Turkey in WW1, it was used as a friendly buffer state. So, it's not some place that can be ignored easily. The fear of Turks in Europe solidified after the defeat in Vienna and left a deep mark that predisposed the idea of Europe as a Christian club. Go loo…

Sorry, but you are wrong. Turkey was the hearth of the Ottoman empire with whom most of Europe had been at intermittent war for centuries until it was dissolved already after WWI (in fact, because of the outcome of WWI). They were certainly not a friend and the main historical current is that the rulers of Europe accepted the dangers of the existence of the very powerful Austo-Hungarian empire exactly so that they wo…

Of course they were at war and did things that were deemed acceptable for the time. Today we do other things that you and me might see as acceptable but our grandchildren will view as atrocities. That's humanity.

What I meant is that after the defeat in Vienna the fate was sealed and it put the final nail into the box for votes of acceptance into the Euro club. It wasn't as clear before. The UK doesn't fear Turks because they didn't have the experience Hungary and Austria had for example.

WW1 and WW2 are both the result of mainly one mis-educated and ill-suited German ruler as the main initiator of the conflict(s), funny enough. WW1 it was the relative of the English king who was just plain stupid and thought war is better than economic dominance and didn't wait a couple days longer for some Austrian correspondence I forgot the details about or it would have been avoided in that year at least.

WW2 was funny enough initiated by Austria, who have always wanted to rejoin Germany.

The way I see it it's a family of monarchies across Europe and Russia who had their quarrels and caused the world devastating losses.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#187

Post by shultays » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 5:26 PM UTC

mda wrote: post #60

gokhan wrote: post #35

These days, most forms of criticism of Erdogan is forbidden in Turkey. During the past 14 years, he and his party turned a barely standing democracy with imperfect rules into a semi-dictatorian state with no rules. Police force fully belongs to him and you can derive many similarities with Hitler's early 1930's. There are no mainstream press left daring to oppose him, no prosecutor can question him for his unconstitu…

A few comments on your statement.. - Erdogan's intolerance for satire or criticism is very disturbing indeed, but the law that is used in these cases was introduced in 2005, during Ahmet Necdet Sezer's presidency (TCK 299), being an expert in constitutional law, he should have vetoed it. Erdogan knows that media eroded his predecessors power,(e.g. Turgut Ozal) and unlike them, he will do anything to not allow that fo…

  - In the end, it still takes a single election to take him and his party down, I have faith in Turkish people, they did it before to others, they will do it to him as well.

I wish I had your faith. There are lots of manipulations in voting process though. Be it illegal (like stealing the votes, making fake votes) and semi-legal (buying votes). I don't know if these are enough to tip scale or but it is harder to do with plain democracy.

Not to mention that his voters are the religious people and mostly not the most educated type. They get easily manipulated by the media. We are at brink of civil war and our international relationship is suffering but he still gets the votes because "he is so charismatic and religious"

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#188

Post by macintux » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 5:27 PM UTC

Ntrails wrote: post #80

matt4077 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It just goes to show that politics is really really hard. You never get to hear about the decisions that are easy. If it's reported in the media, it's almost by definition an issue with multiple viable options (or, in this case, only bad choices). Having seen a bit of German politics from the inside, I can assure you that everyone grapples with choices like this. I've witnessed ministers of finance changing their opi…

When I have political discourse with people the aspect that makes me the most irritable is the implication that it's simple. Politicians are corrupt, stupid, or both - and if they'd just do "x" everything would be better. Even when politicians do the right things (get a panel of experts to write a detailed report, and then try to act on the findings) - headlines contain only the barest hint of the depth of the analys…

Trump makes it sound so simple.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#189

Post by cm3 » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 5:38 PM UTC

Htsthbjig wrote: post #89

cm3 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind that Turkey has often and for long stretches been a buffer/ally between the west and middle and far east. Right before the French and English invaded Turkey in WW1, it was used as a friendly buffer state. So, it's not some place that can be ignored easily. The fear of Turks in Europe solidified after the defeat in Vienna and left a deep mark that predisposed the idea of Europe as a Christian club. Go loo…

Go look around statues in Ankara or Istanbul to see what you mean? Turkey was a Muslim Empire, or as you say, club. They took Christians and enslaved them or made them fought their wars with exclusive privileges only to Muslims. Let's not forget history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide Christians were expelled from Turkey or simply exterminated not that long ago. There is people alive that remembers it.…

I'm sorry you somehow think I was defending atrocities. I didn't mention any of it, and if we wanted to discuss that we'd surely come up with past and present genocides in all parts of the world that haven't been accepted as such and apologized for. Yes, Turkey is one, and there are many others. If your grandpa did something terrible, and there's proof, just own it and distance yourself from it. Nobody walks around in Germany and accuses the population to be Nazis, but it's hard because I know many Germans who feel like they're still having to apologize and defend themselves for WW2.

While it's important to process past atrocities, we need to prevent current ones, and I'd include many state sponsored activities of major forces in the world in the list atrocities. Modern genocide may look vastly different than a mass shooting. This is something where we can (without a time machine) make a difference.

And the thing with genocide is that some countries get away with denying some occurrences and only a select few are getting accused of it vocally. If all atrocities in all places were treated the same way, we might have better chances of processing them officially. I mean these aren't crimes where you can make a deal with the DA and remove some items off the list.

> UK has almost no Christianity?

I meant "a UK without Christianity".

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#190

Post by calibraxis » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 5:39 PM UTC

0xFFC wrote: post #180

calibraxis wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If EU were decent, they'd delist Erdogan's enemy the PKK from the terrorist list. The PKK could teach the EU how to improve European society: ( http://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/30/opinions/rojava-kurds-syri... ) Not to mention the PKK would obviously help end ISIS.

This is pure nonsense. Are you kidding me ? do you have any idea what you are talking about ? Even Iraqi Kurds trying to ban PKK because they know what's going on in that organization. Even Kurds in turkey are not happy with PKK. They want a reform , but most of them wants stay in turkey, while the "being Turkish citizen definition changed".Look at how popular HDP is in Kurdish areas in Turkey. You have no clue what…

Rather than mislead everyone, why not quote what exactly you disagree with, and offer evidence?

- "How could Isis be eliminated? In the region, everyone knows. All it would really take would be to unleash the largely Kurdish forces of the YPG (Democratic Union party) in Syria, and PKK (Kurdistan Workers’ party) guerillas in Iraq and Turkey. These are, currently, the main forces actually fighting Isis on the ground. They have proved extraordinarily militarily effective and oppose every aspect of Isis’s reactionary ideology." (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/18/turkey-...)

- Erdogan went apeshit after HDP deprived him his parliament majority: "The cynicism behind Erdogan’s calculation to launch a full-scale war against the PKK is stunning." (http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/09/21/erdogans-deadly-ambition...)

- “'Kurdish people are fighting for our rights, and Turkey is trying to finish us off,' says 53-year-old Ramazon Sakci as he stands in the garden of his home, which is riddled with bullet holes.” (http://www.thenation.com/article/turkey-is-fighting-a-dirty-...)