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Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

nytimes.com

181–190 of 415 posts

Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#181

Any device that relies on hiding secrets inside the silicon itself is subject to hacking. Several secure-enclave like chips have been hacked in the past by using electron microscopes and direct probes on the silicon. If BlackHat conference independent security researchers have the resources to pull this off, Apple and the NSA certainly can. Exfiltrating the Enclave UID could be done by various mechanisms at the chip…

"(BTW, why the downvote? If you think I'm wrong, post a rebuttal)"

Don't discuss your (or others') votes.

Don't interrupt the discussion to meta-discuss the scoring system.

Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#183

What I want is a service that deletes all my online presence after I die. A deadswitch. All texts, messages, emails, facebook posts, pictures anywhere, everything . I want it all to go when I do. Hell, I want some of it to go now. After I'm gone, I want to leave no part of my existence on the internet. I realize that's not possible. But I want to minimize my footprint. It is totally possible for a local device. I hav…

When something you create is public, you no longer have a right to dictate it. You do not have a right to be forgotten. That would be an attempt at some sort of thought control, and you don't get to tell us that this comment you just wrote can and should be forgotten. If I choose to remember it, outside of your wishes, there's nothing you can do about it.

Private information is another matter, but when people presume they have rights to choose how others think, it really makes my blood boil.

Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#184
post #82
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, at least, not by the DOJ, and not for any use in a court of law.

We wrote about this in our border search guide and concluded that there is a risk of being refused admission to the U.S. in this case (in the border search context) because the CBP agents performing the inspection have extremely broad discretion on "admissibility" of non-citizens and non-permanent residents, and refusing to cooperate with what they see as a part of the inspection could be something that would lead th…

" they don't obviously get to impose penal sanctions on people for saying no"

I wonder if there is any negative effects associated with being refused entry by a CBP? Could it be the case that if you are refused entry once, that in the future they will be more likely to refuse you entry? If so, that's a fairly significant penalty/power that the CBP person has.

Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#185
post #85
post #7

Don't they just need to tell people to switch away from 4 or 6 digit pins and use longer passwords?

Yes, they could just remove the PIN authentication method, and I hope they do. Because then it would leave DoJ to argue for something even more extreme than they are now.

Or just burn in the auto wipe functionality so it can't be disabled by a software update unless you have the correct password.

Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By saying what exactly? That an unhackable iOS is illegal? That's not currently true and it is the precedent that everyone believes the DOJ would like to set, but that the DOJ keeps denying.

I'm just thinking out loud, but who knows? DOJ has been pretty creative about making this issue more critical than the other times they've tried to unlock iOS devices (because, of course, terrorism ) What if the feds decide that an O/S update closes a zeroday that the NSA was using (note they've been really quiet here) and interferes with an FBI investigation in process? And yeah, DOJ keeps saying it's just the one d…

There is currently no law on the books that compels Apple to act here. That is why Comey asked Obama to ask congress for a law. Obama said no and advised using the AWA.

They won't try to pass this law until after this election year. It's too sensitive an issue and will fracture the voter base along unexpected lines, thus giving Trump a chance at winning.

Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#187
post #84

Good. Congress shall pass no law abridging freedom of speech, and code has been ruled free speech. The only reason previous wiretapping laws were passed is because they weren't in the limelight and the public never had a chance to weigh in. Let's make this an election issue

Take a step back and fight campaign finance and gerrymandering, so that people are once again represented well in lawmaking. Campaign finance needs to be reformed so that it becomes affordable for representatives to represent their country instead of their sponsors, and gerrymandering so that democracy has the competition it needs to select better politicians.

I'm fine with that. But this issue is being debated now, and if you choose to not take a side, keep in mind that that is still taking a side. You've simply let someone else decide for you.

Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#188
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not anywhere near 99% of the way there; they've destroyed the heterogeneous decentralized ecosystem that broad security requires. Locking themselves out of the Secure Enclave isn't anywhere near sufficient. As long as the device software and trust mechanisms are totally opaque and centrally controlled by Apple, the whole thing is just a facade. There's almost nothing Apple can't push to the phone, and the aud…

I think from the context it's pretty clear that "hack" in this case is referring to "being forced to unlock". Yes, they could still deliberately break encryption for future OSes and phones, but the same could be said of any software, open or closed source. I don't think acting like an open ecosystem is the be-all and end-all of security is productive. Most organizations (let alone individuals) don't have the resource…

How does a 3rd-party researcher find the next heartbleed if they can't even decrypt the binaries for analysis?

Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the chief protection against the PIN code hacking comes from the retry counter. The FBI doesn't need the crypto keys, it just needs the PIN code. So it needs to brute force about 10,000 PIN codes. Any mechanism that prevents the application processor from either a) remembering it incremented the count b) corrupts the count or c) patches the logic that handles a retry count of 10, is sufficient to attack the phone…

You seem to make the assumption that corrupting the secure enclave firmware is easy, or that its RAM is exposed of chip. The entire point of an secure enclave is to completely enclose all the hardware and software needed to generate encryption keys in a single lump of silicon. This means that all of its processing requirements (it's a complete co-processor) are on chip, it's RAM is on chip (not shared with it the mai…

I don't make that assumption, I worked on developing TPM modules myself in the 90s at research labs, and our prototypes had even more anti-tampering than so far revealed about Secure Enclave/Trustzone: we had micro-wire-meshes in the packaging to self-destruct on drilling or decapping, we had anti-ultrasonic and anti-TEMPEST shielding. I'm pretty familiar.

The point is that state actors have vast resources to pull off these attacks. The NSA intercepted hardware in the supply chain to implant attacks as documented by Snowden. Stuxnet was a super-elaborate attack on the physical resources of the Iranian nuclear program, which was obviously carried out with supply chain vendors like Siemens. Apple uses Samsung as a supplier, and the US government has very high level security arrangements with the South Koreans, so how do we know the chips haven't been compromised even before they arrive at Foxconn for assembly?

Here's an example of a TPM module being decapped and hacked at Blackhat: https://redmondmag.com/articles/2010/02/03/black-hat-enginee...

Attacks have been shown using silicon doping, security fuse cutting, etc.

If the NSA really wanted to crack the Secure Enclave, I have very little doubt about their ability to carry it out.

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