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German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

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Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#181

Post by terminalcommand »

incompatible wrote: post #179
brakmic wrote: post #15

I doubt they have capable programmers working for them. A few years ago the Chaos Computer Club discovered the 'predecessor' version of this State-Trojan ("Bundestrojaner"). This version was a perfect example what happens when you _want_ to have such a software but your programmers _suck_ at even most basic things (like establishing a working traffic-encryption). Here's the video (in German): https://youtu.be/zAV-hTp…

I thought even Windows was more secure by default these days. Is there reason to think the German government can actually install trojans remotely, especially if you decline any offer to click on interesting emails?

Learning from Prism in US, I think it's highly possible. Remember the state also has control over ISPs and internet access. They can inject binary into files you download. It is very unlikely that you operate in an air-gapped computer. I've been learning some reverse engineering lately and the possibilities for injecting malicious code seem endless. If such a practice happens, people will have to live in paranoia.

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#182

Post by [deleted] »

incompatible wrote: post #179
brakmic wrote: post #15

I doubt they have capable programmers working for them. A few years ago the Chaos Computer Club discovered the 'predecessor' version of this State-Trojan ("Bundestrojaner"). This version was a perfect example what happens when you _want_ to have such a software but your programmers _suck_ at even most basic things (like establishing a working traffic-encryption). Here's the video (in German): https://youtu.be/zAV-hTp…

I thought even Windows was more secure by default these days. Is there reason to think the German government can actually install trojans remotely, especially if you decline any offer to click on interesting emails?

[deleted]

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#183

Post by terminalcommand »

rudolf0 wrote: post #159
yoo1I wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because by taking complete control of a suspects computer, with a software that's essentially a version of backorifice, you're mudding up all the evidence you might have found. A wiretap is completely passive. Sure one might fake that data as well, but in it's nature it's different from taking control of the whole computer, I would say.

Perhaps. But no-knock search warrants are also legal. The police can break into your house and put cameras or microphones in it with a warrant. Even though the process of breaking-in does affect the evidence a little, or even opens the possibility of a cop planting drugs or something, it's generally still accepted in court. This is basically the same thing as using malware for surveillance. I'd argue the malware is e…

Digital evidence is IMO a different matter than physical evidence. The threshold for implanting fake digital evidence is very low. You need fewer people, you can cover your traces easily... To break-in and install cameras you need to find a suitable time where the suspect is away for a long time. And you can't always break-in to the house and change things, you won't be permitted. The monitoring of the use of these trojans is the most important problem. With a trojan horse you have access to the computer 24/7 and you can do whatever you want. Of course you could argue that police could also plant fake physical evidence, but that's a lot harder to do and you need more people. (more witnesses) There is a thin line seperating a state of law from a police state.

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#184

Post by johnsea »

Xylakant wrote: post #167
johnsea wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm against censoring. What I read here: >>hatte ... von einem "lebensbejahenden afrikanischen Ausbreitungstyp" gesprochen - was von Experten als rassistisch gewertet worden war [1] http://www.focus.de/politik/videos/er-hatte-sport-und-geschi...

You're mistaken. There's no censoring going on at all. Höcke is free to say whatever he wants in public. He even gets more publicity and reach than most people. However, freedom of speech doesn't mean that statements are without consequence. He already collected a warning for voicing extreme right tendencies earlier (before the AFD even existed) and well, now there's consequences. He's a history teacher and fringe ri…

You are wrong. Censoring [1] is exactly what I said, "the purpose of suppressing parts deemed objectionable on moral, political, military, or other grounds". He is being threatened to lose his job, this is suppression. You don't have to agree with him but one should be careful with 'fringe right wing' claims and who is or is not fit for a job. [1] http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/censoring

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#185

Post by Xylakant »

johnsea wrote: post #184
Xylakant wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're mistaken. There's no censoring going on at all. Höcke is free to say whatever he wants in public. He even gets more publicity and reach than most people. However, freedom of speech doesn't mean that statements are without consequence. He already collected a warning for voicing extreme right tendencies earlier (before the AFD even existed) and well, now there's consequences. He's a history teacher and fringe ri…

You are wrong. Censoring [1] is exactly what I said, "the purpose of suppressing parts deemed objectionable on moral, political, military, or other grounds". He is being threatened to lose his job, this is suppression. You don't have to agree with him but one should be careful with 'fringe right wing' claims and who is or is not fit for a job. [1] http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/censoring

sorry, he leads a party that openly called for shooting children at the border. He's fringe (or I hope so, because if he isn't, I need to emigrate)

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#187

Post by DavideNL »

alexandercrohde wrote: post #132

I think this really illustrates one of the biggest concerns with concentrating software power in the executive: what if a totalitarian seizes control? How much damage can they accomplish? Last time, less than 100 years ago, 2/3rds of the Jewish race was eliminated. How much damage could be done to a targeted minority in the information age? Governments by my account, have killed (6 million) an order of magnitude more…

"How much damage can they accomplish?"

instantly made me think about Donald Trump... :/

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#188

Post by ptaipale »

Xylakant wrote: post #185
johnsea wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are wrong. Censoring [1] is exactly what I said, "the purpose of suppressing parts deemed objectionable on moral, political, military, or other grounds". He is being threatened to lose his job, this is suppression. You don't have to agree with him but one should be careful with 'fringe right wing' claims and who is or is not fit for a job. [1] http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/censoring

sorry, he leads a party that openly called for shooting children at the border. He's fringe (or I hope so, because if he isn't, I need to emigrate)

> he leads a party that openly called for shooting children at the border.

My understanding is that

1) he is not leading the party, he is one of the speakers for the party in the local (state) assembly. And I understand he is actually repeatedly clashing with the actual AfD leadership.

2) any comments about "shooting children" or even generally changing rules of engagement regarding firearms are not, as far as I know, an AfD party position, as the party leader responds in [0]

3) I understood the comments about using firearms were for a context where authorities are under a violent attack when performing their duties. Specifically, did they mention children? I didn't think so, but I could be mistaken.

I don't need to like what the "fringe" says, but I wouldn't like to make it bigger than it is. Because precisely this kind of exaggeration is what is undermining the credibility of legitimate criticism of AfD (the most devastating kind being, "hey, what would you really do instead?" because that is a question that is very hard to answer.) Its supporters see the opponents as just twisting the truth.

(I'm not experiencing this in Germany, but there are very similar discussions going on here in the Nordic countries: enormous straw men constructions are built all the time around criticism of immigration policies, and people are really quite fed up with that. If you keep repeating to people that they are racists, they may eventually start to believe you. In Sweden, the political consensus to "exclude the extreme right fringe from politics" seems to be resulting in the "extreme right fringe" now having the second largest electoral support of all parties [1], and continuing to grow. Once they go near 50 % it's going to be hard to talk about "fringe".)

[0] http://www.dw.com/en/german-right-leaning-afd-leader-calls-f... [1] http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article22117739.ab

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#189

Post by Xylakant »

ptaipale wrote: post #188
Xylakant wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sorry, he leads a party that openly called for shooting children at the border. He's fringe (or I hope so, because if he isn't, I need to emigrate)

> he leads a party that openly called for shooting children at the border. My understanding is that 1) he is not leading the party, he is one of the speakers for the party in the local (state) assembly. And I understand he is actually repeatedly clashing with the actual AfD leadership. 2) any comments about "shooting children" or even generally changing rules of engagement regarding firearms are not, as far as I know…

> Specifically, did they mention children? I didn't think so, but I could be mistaken.

you are mistaken.

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#190

Post by Xylakant »

johnsea wrote: post #184
Xylakant wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're mistaken. There's no censoring going on at all. Höcke is free to say whatever he wants in public. He even gets more publicity and reach than most people. However, freedom of speech doesn't mean that statements are without consequence. He already collected a warning for voicing extreme right tendencies earlier (before the AFD even existed) and well, now there's consequences. He's a history teacher and fringe ri…

You are wrong. Censoring [1] is exactly what I said, "the purpose of suppressing parts deemed objectionable on moral, political, military, or other grounds". He is being threatened to lose his job, this is suppression. You don't have to agree with him but one should be careful with 'fringe right wing' claims and who is or is not fit for a job. [1] http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/censoring

> You are wrong.

Just because you have a different opinion does not make yours right nor does it make mine wrong. I'll reiterate for you why I don't see any censorship here.

Bernd Höcke is "verbeamteter" Teacher. Beamte in germany are a special kind of state employees that get many benefits (1) but in return give up some liberties (2) and as part of their oath of office they commit themselves to a neutral political view in public and a very strict adherence to the constitution. All kind of extreme political opinion voiced in public are off limits for them - left or right. It's a contract that Bernd Höcke willingly and freely entered without coercion. He violated that rule in 2006 and was warned. He now violated it again. He basically violated his employment contract and for that he's terminated. He's still free to voice his opinion. No censorship here.

(1) can't be fired unless they commit a grave offense, get their health insurance and pension funded by the government etc. (2) also the right to strike, etc

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