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Secret US flight flew over Scottish airspace to capture Snowden

thenational.scot

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Re: Secret US flight flew over Scottish airspace to capture Snowden

#181

Post by 13thLetter »

krapp wrote: post #144
13thLetter wrote: post #141

Attention, Americans in this comments section: even though you're complaining now, if you guys obediently line up to re-elect the party doing this come November, you are part of the problem.

Are you implying the next Republican president will put a stop to it? That's what the partisan argument in your comment seems to imply. Which comes down to probably Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio or Donald Trump... I don't see that happening.

I am not implying anything. I am straight up stating that if you don't throw the bastards out, they will never learn.

If you actually care about policy instead of about avoiding the hated outgroup, your relationship with politicians needs to be transactional. If they don't deliver, find another one, even if said politician is (gasp! shock!) not a Democrat. I would recommend the same, by the way, to Republicans who are upset that the Congressional GOP isn't cutting spending. Vote them out of power, it's the only way to get your point through.

Re: Secret US flight flew over Scottish airspace to capture Snowden

#182

Post by mineshaftgap »

Natsu wrote: post #145
Natsu wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Either way, the implication that Snowden was targeted for extrajudicial kidnapping isn't supported by any evidence presented so far. We have the downing of President Evo Morales' plane as evidence in support of that. You can read a more full explanation of that here: http://www.democracynow.org/2015/9/15/julian_assange_us_spyi...

I see that some people disagree with that claim. I'd like to hear their explanation as to why they do not believe this is evidence. Note in particular that I'm not claiming this as absolute proof, just that it's evidence . While one might argue over the weight that should be assigned to it, it seems sufficiently irregular that it should be hard to claim that it's not even evidence.

Just because you don't like something doesn't make it extrajudicial, and maybe you should take it up with the governments of Europe.

Re: Secret US flight flew over Scottish airspace to capture Snowden

#183

Post by mc32 »

vacri wrote: post #175
mc32 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to go far into the rabbit hole here but are they represented in the UN or any other kind of international bodies constituted of member states? I understand how they feel about themselves, or more specifically how roughly half of them feel, however, it's not how the world sees them, generally speaking. Chinese understand "the UK" Scotland, as an international political entity will get you sideways looks.

You're not going to find one magic rule that defines "a country". And I would particularly caution you against using "Does China think you are a country in your own right?" as the measuring stick - they have quite notable differences in this area when compared to others.

With a couple of exceptions, it's fairly straightforward. Is it recognized as a sovereign nation by the UN, does it issue passports, does it control import and export of goods, does it enter into international treaties?

Yes, I know we have people in Arizona who claim to be sovereign and people in places like Texas who want to become their own nation. Thing is, it's only in their view, no external authority recognizes that.

Re: Secret US flight flew over Scottish airspace to capture Snowden

#184

Post by slr555 »

The range of a Gulfstream V is about 6500 miles. Given that fact the jet could have easily flown without entering UK airspace at all. The Gulfstream V also has an initial cruising altitude of 41,000 feet with a max of 51,000 feet. 45,000 feet may be high for a commercial jet but the G5 cruises comfortably at that altitude. Given these facts I am not sure why the CIA would create the exposure flying over the UK would create. My guess is they have heard of flight aware and know a transponder does.

Re: Secret US flight flew over Scottish airspace to capture Snowden

#185

Post by tptacek »

jccc wrote: post #177
tptacek wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no idea what you're talking about, but if you're thinking of someone in particular who has suggested that Greenwald should be prosecuted, you should put your weird questions to that person, not me.

http://www.aim.org/aim-column/prosecuting-glenn-greenwald/ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/12/peter-king-glenn-gr... https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2013/06/... http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/would_ag_holder_... http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/eric-holder-says-he-... Taken literally from the entire first page on Google: https://encrypted.google.com/search?hl=en&q=prosecu…

You are not out of bounds asking any of those people to answer for what they said, but please stop asking me to.

Re: Secret US flight flew over Scottish airspace to capture Snowden

#186

Post by tptacek »

kafkaesq wrote: post #180
tptacek wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you help me understand what it is about a specific piece of equipment having in the past been used for human rights abuse that makes it unsuitable for any future use? It would be one thing if the CIA had operated the flight, but this plane is known to have been transferred to the DOJ long before the flight to extradite Snowden.

It sounds like the CIA (and the Obama administration), drawing on past experience, got wise and figured the mission would look less "dirty" if it wasn't a spook plane, but a regular government-registered plane that actually came to pick Snowden up. But the main point is that adds to the body of circumstantial evidence that some kind of a rendition operation was being planned.

Again: nobody doubts there was a "rendition" planned. Snowden had been indicted for multiple felonies. "Rendition" is what happens when someone is extradited.

Re: Secret US flight flew over Scottish airspace to capture Snowden

#187

Post by tptacek »

tomjen3 wrote: post #129
tptacek wrote: post #22

The craft was used in controversial US ‘rendition’ missions This is apparently true, but misleading. The specific plane we're discussing was used by the CIA, but by this point had been transferred to DOJ for some time. It's also misleading to use the word "rendition" as a shorthand for "extraordinary rendition" (which is itself newspeak for "kidnapping"). "Rendition" itself is simply the process of effectuating extra…

What should have happen is that the US should be banned in all eternity from any kind of rendition, "extraordinary" or otherwise and the plane put up on the white house lawn as a permanent object of shame.

Why stop there? Why not disband the United States and put them into a receivership managed by Iceland?

Re: Secret US flight flew over Scottish airspace to capture Snowden

#188

Post by kafkaesq »

tptacek wrote: post #150
jccc wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the USG also have an interest in (c) the ability to prosecute and punish Snowden in such a conspicuous and forceful way that anyone else in a position similar to his would be frightened enough not to take any action similar to his? Snowden and his informal team of assistants Do you believe Greenwald, et al. are collaborators and therefore should be prosecuted?

No. I really dislike Greenwald and, to a lesser extent, The Intercept as a publication, and think they spread more disinformation than journalism, but it's hard for me to see what crime any of them could possibly have committed. (I answered your first question upthread).

they spread more disinformation than journalism,

Specifics?

Re: Secret US flight flew over Scottish airspace to capture Snowden

#189

Post by kafkaesq »

tptacek wrote: post #186
kafkaesq wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like the CIA (and the Obama administration), drawing on past experience, got wise and figured the mission would look less "dirty" if it wasn't a spook plane, but a regular government-registered plane that actually came to pick Snowden up. But the main point is that adds to the body of circumstantial evidence that some kind of a rendition operation was being planned.

Again: nobody doubts there was a "rendition" planned. Snowden had been indicted for multiple felonies. "Rendition" is what happens when someone is extradited.

OK, some sort of extra- or pseudojudicial rendition, then.

Re: Secret US flight flew over Scottish airspace to capture Snowden

#190

Post by tptacek »

kafkaesq wrote: post #189
tptacek wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again: nobody doubts there was a "rendition" planned. Snowden had been indicted for multiple felonies. "Rendition" is what happens when someone is extradited.

OK, some sort of extra- or pseudojudicial rendition, then.

Based on what evidence? Most of the EU will respond to extradition requests and render subjects in response to the crimes Snowden was indicted for.
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