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Lawsuits Claim Disney Colluded to Replace U.S. Workers with Immigrants

nytimes.com

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Re: Lawsuits Claim Disney Colluded to Replace U.S. Workers with Immigrants

#181

Post by logfromblammo »

prostoalex wrote: post #178
logfromblammo wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And just never mind that the outsourcing company's entire business model revolves around convincing the client and the government that no person currently authorized to work in the US could possibly do the job. Just as hiring someone to kill for you does not absolve you of the legal responsibility for murder, hiring someone to lie for you does not absolve you of the legal responsibility for fraud.

I am not questioning the moral aspect of it, but technically speaking three events happened. 1) Disney decided to outsource a project (a program? entire department?) to Cognizant. 2) Cognizant brought their own staffers onto the project, those staffers were brought into the US on an H1 program. 3) Disney included mandatory training of Cognizant employees into severance package of their departing employees. Neither (1…

I wouldn't have a problem forbidding all companies from requiring an employee terminated involuntarily and without cause to train their own replacement before they are tossed out on their ear. Actually, I wouldn't even mind forbidding any work duties that were not typical prior to the notice of termination.

But that doesn't need to be done by the government. It seems like the sort of situation that a good collective bargaining agreement could handle. Such an oddity might guarantee a minimum severance package that is not contingent upon the employees symbolically cutting their own throats.

I believe that immigration law already requires an LCA to be filed for each non-temporary work location. If Cognizant intended to employ workers in California longer than 10 days, it would have to pay the prevailing California wage, not the prevailing New Jersey wage.

H1B workers already are "bound" to the area of the LCA. If the company wants to move them permanently, it has to file another LCA for them.

None of those requirements prevented this from happening.

Disney had a duty, which could not reasonably be delegated, to ensure that its contractor would be obeying the laws that Disney is expected to obey. If such a duty did not exist, there would be a huge, obvious loophole in the law that would allow anyone to break any law at will, just by creating a throwaway corporation to do it, and paying the skeleton crew a scapegoat bonus.

Re: Lawsuits Claim Disney Colluded to Replace U.S. Workers with Immigrants

#182

Post by prostoalex »

logfromblammo wrote: post #181
prostoalex wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not questioning the moral aspect of it, but technically speaking three events happened. 1) Disney decided to outsource a project (a program? entire department?) to Cognizant. 2) Cognizant brought their own staffers onto the project, those staffers were brought into the US on an H1 program. 3) Disney included mandatory training of Cognizant employees into severance package of their departing employees. Neither (1…

I wouldn't have a problem forbidding all companies from requiring an employee terminated involuntarily and without cause to train their own replacement before they are tossed out on their ear. Actually, I wouldn't even mind forbidding any work duties that were not typical prior to the notice of termination. But that doesn't need to be done by the government. It seems like the sort of situation that a good collective…

> might guarantee a minimum severance package that is not contingent upon the employees symbolically cutting their own throats

Also known as unemployment benefits?

Re: Lawsuits Claim Disney Colluded to Replace U.S. Workers with Immigrants

#183

Post by serge2k »

davidw wrote: post #82
rayiner wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a pretty ignorant article. The limiting factor for immigration is how quickly you can Americanize immigrants, not land area. As for why it's imperative to Americanize immigrants. Look at how much trouble the U.S. has had cultivating democracy in places like Iraq. Most people acknowledge that the Iraqi people aren't ready for Democracy. Do you think they would be any more ready for democracy if you moved them e…

> how quickly you can Americanize immigrants, not land area. Well that's an easily defined metric, isn't it... There's nothing that says you must let immigrants become citizens right away, or give them all the same privileges citizens are entitled to. For instance, it wouldn't be at all unfair to kick people out for certain classes of crime.

> There's nothing that says you must let immigrants become citizens right away, or give them all the same privileges citizens are entitled to.

You already have a process of green card + a bunch of time leading to eligibility. Isn't that good enough?

> For instance, it wouldn't be at all unfair to kick people out for certain classes of crime.

you mean prior to them getting citizenship right?

Re: Lawsuits Claim Disney Colluded to Replace U.S. Workers with Immigrants

#184

Post by serge2k »

protomyth wrote: post #41
davidw wrote: post #6

The real fix to this is to make sure that people brought over with an H1-B can easily change jobs. That way they're not beholden to some low-wage job, and companies that bring people in merely for low wages will face high rates of churn.

No, the real fix is to make sure the actual goals of the program align with what actually happens. At this point, saying that each H1-B worker must make $117,700[1] or more to prove they are skilled beyond US workers seems to be a fair change. After all, if you can hire US citizens cheaper, you are not fulfilling the goals of the program[2]. 1) 10x poverty guidelines in US for 2015. 2) http://www.dol.gov/whd/immigrat…

> At this point, saying that each H1-B worker must make $117,700[1] or more to prove they are skilled beyond US workers seems to be a fair change

That's not enough for some places. I know mid level engineers at some of the big companies make more than that, for example.

Re: Lawsuits Claim Disney Colluded to Replace U.S. Workers with Immigrants

#185

Post by serge2k »

dba7dba wrote: post #155
bsder wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because immigrants have different economic value. Adding 65,000 day laborers is very different from adding 65,000 engineers.

I mean no offense to those 65,000 H1B visa holders but many many of them don't deserve the title 'engineers'. No, not even the title of IT workers . They are quite often simply bodies being pushed by the outsourcing firms to get fees. Many of these workers brought to Disney had to be trained for months .

> I mean no offense to

has anything inoffensive ever followed this phrase?

Re: Lawsuits Claim Disney Colluded to Replace U.S. Workers with Immigrants

#186

Post by serge2k »

protomyth wrote: post #37
crapolasplatter wrote: post #30

Wait A second something doesn't make sense here. I thought the main reason for H1-B visas was because there aren't enough American workers? So why would they get rid of American workers they already had ,that have been doing the job? Surely it couldn't be because they lower pay of the H1-B workers?

Why yes, http://www.dol.gov/whd/immigration/h1b.htm states: The intent of the H-1B provisions is to help employers who cannot otherwise obtain needed business skills and abilities from the U.S. workforce by authorizing the temporary employment of qualified individuals who are not otherwise authorized to work in the United States. Sadly, the top H1-B visa sponsors are: http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2015-H1B-Visa-S…

top 10 are all consulting, wow.

Re: Lawsuits Claim Disney Colluded to Replace U.S. Workers with Immigrants

#187

Post by MaysonL »

harryh wrote: post #153
MaysonL wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 1945, most Americans would have believed that the Japanese people and the German people were not ready for democracy. Luckily the Truman administration and its allies were not as feckless and irresponsible as the Bush administration.

I don't think your assertion about 1945 is correct. Both Germany and Japan had functional and stable democracies before that date which was excellent evidence that they could support it.

Note that my assertion was not about Germany and Japan.

Re: Lawsuits Claim Disney Colluded to Replace U.S. Workers with Immigrants

#188

Post by dba7dba »

serge2k wrote: post #185
dba7dba wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean no offense to those 65,000 H1B visa holders but many many of them don't deserve the title 'engineers'. No, not even the title of IT workers . They are quite often simply bodies being pushed by the outsourcing firms to get fees. Many of these workers brought to Disney had to be trained for months .

> I mean no offense to has anything inoffensive ever followed this phrase?

Yeah, calling the H1B visa holders such is offensive. But so is how the workers are treated.
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