Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

mikehadlow.blogspot.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

181–190 of 197 posts

Re: Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

#181

Post by mywittyname »

dagw wrote: post #57
sotojuan wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would argue that CS grads who do not spend some time learning practical skills on the side are idiots and completely misunderstand the industry they are trying to enter. I agree, but then I realize I live in a bubble. Here and in /r/cscareerquestions, everyone knows to do side projects. In my school, most people don't. Neither do my friends in other schools. They may get one internship but that's the only "practi…

Perhaps we need to stress a bit more practicality in CS curriculum? No, we need to stop telling people who want a career in web development to get a degree in Computer Science. And universities should stop convincing people who really want to be software engineers to study computer science. If you want to work as a structural engineer you'll probably get a degree in structural or mechanical engineering. You don't get…

> You don't get a degree in theoretical physics and complain that since structural engineering is just a practical application of theoretical physics your physics curriculum really should be more focused on practical engineering.

I sometimes feel like we should just call Computer Science what it really is, Applied Computational Mathematics. Because, you're exactly right, there is a disconnect between the teachings and expectations of most CS programs.

Then again, my CS program offered lots of 'practical' courses, like iOS and web development. They even created a BA program that removed most of the math requirements and replaced them with those vocationally related classes.

Re: Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

#182

Post by mattbgates »

I developed a website for anyone to practice their HTML, CSS, Javascript coding skills. It is a quick, user-friendly single webpage creation platform without having to deal with hosting or registration. Feel free to practice or make permanent pages. Feedback welcome! http://mypost.io/

Re: Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

#183

Post by umaguma »

sbov wrote: post #78
mattmanser wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Err, yeah, you could work as a professional programmer if you wanted to. You can code. The whole point the article is trying to get across is that a lot of people are simply unable to learn how to code. You've learnt. You CAN become a professional. You just don't realize it. The step you've taken is the hard one. In fact, there's another big dirty secret in programming. A load of professional programmers aren't able…

There's a dirtier secret: A load of professional programmers are not able to make new programs. A load of professional programmers are not able to modify existing programs. And a load of professional programmers are not able to finish programs. Almost no-one is good at all 3. Most are extremely bad at least one of these. Lots of people who are "good" at making new programs are actually pretty bad.

It's not a secret when you know how to code but you are an end user. Knowing how to code and knowing how to learn to code makes this widespread incompetence masquerading as competence and even "professionalism" radiate from every bit of software you ever come in contact with, as an end user. Seeing the source code just drives home the message even more. You become a more discerning end user.

Re: Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

#184

Post by teach »

wes-exp wrote: post #138
teach wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your perspective is incorrect. I've made my living by teaching beginners to code. I have been doing it for the better part of two decades, and I specialize in teaching students that have little aptitude for it. I make my students code FizzBuzz. It is literally the 106th project I make them do. That is, they have completed 105 complete computer programs before getting to FizzBuzz. And many of them still struggle with…

The ill-conceived notion that parents giving children procedural instructions is somehow like programming brings me to a question for you as a teacher. I've noticed that the industry really prides itself on algorithms and this is commonly reflected in interviews. However, it seems to me that merely discussing algorithms, however clever they might be, is actually an intuitive human activity not unlike the example of t…

I think algorithm design is hard. Most students/people can't break down a problem into small enough steps for the computer to do them.

Are you familiar with the concept of "chunking" in memory research? Well, computers don't chunk but humans do. Humans tend to think about their algorithms in terms of the chunks they already know, but for computers sometimes each chunk has to be broken down into much smaller sub-steps.

And that's non-intuitive and hard. When explaining stuff to a human you get immediate non-verbal or sometimes verbal feedback if they don't understand the chunks, but computers just give a syntax error.

SECONDLY. Students have trouble making an accurate mental model of what the computer is doing at each step, so they can't trace through the code, much less create new code.

Those are the two biggies, in my experience.

Re: Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

#185

Post by draw_down »

hashkb wrote: post #3

Also, shoveling bootcampers into the industry is bad for real engineers and the quality of their software. Management everywhere is lowering the bar so they can hit their hiring goals and pretending the consequences are natural.

This "learn to code" stuff is about labor costs, not employing people. Developers are expensive, having more of them lowers the cost per.

Re: Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

#186

Post by dagw »

mywittyname wrote: post #181
dagw wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps we need to stress a bit more practicality in CS curriculum? No, we need to stop telling people who want a career in web development to get a degree in Computer Science. And universities should stop convincing people who really want to be software engineers to study computer science. If you want to work as a structural engineer you'll probably get a degree in structural or mechanical engineering. You don't get…

> You don't get a degree in theoretical physics and complain that since structural engineering is just a practical application of theoretical physics your physics curriculum really should be more focused on practical engineering. I sometimes feel like we should just call Computer Science what it really is, Applied Computational Mathematics. Because, you're exactly right, there is a disconnect between the teachings an…

Then again, my CS program offered lots of 'practical' courses, like iOS and web development. They even created a BA program that removed most of the math requirements and replaced them with those vocationally related classes.

That sounds like great programs that all universities should offer. They just shouldn't call it a CS program.

Re: Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

#187

Post by spacemanmatt »

paulcole wrote: post #27

There's a big gulf between knowing how to code and working as a professional software developer. I'm a writer for a marketing agency, but I write Google App Scripts, JavaScript, and PHP on a regular basis to automate tasks, try out ideas I have, etc. There's no way I could work as a professional software developer, but I know how to code enough to help make my professional/personal life easier and more fun. Isn't the…

Adding to the chorus. You sound like a good self-teacher, and that's a big part of being a regular developer. Don't sell yourself short.

Re: Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

#188

Post by spacemanmatt »

ry_ry wrote: post #170
acveilleux wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It all depends... The question boils down to "how much of a shit job are you willing to go after"? There's always a few programming jobs that no one wants because the pay is awful and the company/job description is crap (PHP web apps for 28k/year? ROFLOL). But then they act as proof of employability for slightly better companies and soon you have 12-24 months of "professional" experience and landing interviews at OK…

PHP is paradise compared to the bed of glass and nails some of us 30-somethings had to drag ourselves through man. Lotus Domino. Never Forget.

Or learning to program in C on DOS, where a bad pointer could not only hose your program, but easily hose the OS too

Re: Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

#189

Post by joshcanhelp »

gyardley wrote: post #115
joshcanhelp wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a paper published about exactly this, summarized by Jeff Atwood [1]. Essentially, there appears, according to the authors, that there is a mindset that people either have or don't have that allows them to understand the very basics (variable assignment, iteration, etc) before they've had any training at all. Students were tested before 3 weeks of education and after and the results were essentially the same…

I really wish people wouldn't link to ten-year-old drafts without checking on current research. The article Atwood links to makes some totally bombastic claims - here's the retraction and clarification of them: http://www.eis.mdx.ac.uk/staffpages/r_bornat/papers/camel_hu... While a consistent mental model for things like assignment is a good sign, not initially having it doesn't mean you can't learn how to code. Late…

I appreciate the update you posted, I'll definitely read it. The paper mentioned just stuck in my head and it didn't occur to me to research it in-depth before posting.

> I wish I could understand why so many programmers are eager to assume their skills are due to something 'innate'.

I'm not eager to assume that but it lines up with my experience over the years learning how to program and helping others do the same. It seems like it comes easily to some and harder or not at all to others. When I first read summaries of that study, it sounded correct based on my experience.

Going a little further ... I will say there's something enticing about thinking that you have a special skill that others do not and that you've found purpose for that skill. It's a bit like "finding your soulmate" in a way. I think a lot of us, myself absolutely, want to find that thing that we're good at and were made to do.

Might also be good old fashioned ego :)

Re: Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

#190

Post by joshcanhelp »

gyardley wrote: post #115
joshcanhelp wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a paper published about exactly this, summarized by Jeff Atwood [1]. Essentially, there appears, according to the authors, that there is a mindset that people either have or don't have that allows them to understand the very basics (variable assignment, iteration, etc) before they've had any training at all. Students were tested before 3 weeks of education and after and the results were essentially the same…

I really wish people wouldn't link to ten-year-old drafts without checking on current research. The article Atwood links to makes some totally bombastic claims - here's the retraction and clarification of them: http://www.eis.mdx.ac.uk/staffpages/r_bornat/papers/camel_hu... While a consistent mental model for things like assignment is a good sign, not initially having it doesn't mean you can't learn how to code. Late…

Well, maybe I won't read it ... requires a login
Post reply on HN