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Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

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Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still not clear what you would have a hiring manager do today . I usually have several positions open at any given time; I don't even recall the last black applicant we've seen. I have talented co-workers of many different races (specifically including black), but even without visiting our office, you could guess the percentage breakdown and you wouldn't be far off. I can't hire applicants that don't exist and I…

You can shift your notions of "qualified". You can hire junior engineers and mentor and train them to be successful. Then you can proactively advertise your positions to programs and organizations that have more minority participation. Of course this takes more work for you, the hiring manager, in sourcing and on boarding. But there should be a burden on every hiring manager to correct the systemic diversity problems…

"Qualified" will always mean "can make a computer do things we need done" and that's not negotiable.

We do hire at all experience levels and several of our successful squad leads are original college hires (having only worked with us), so we have some demonstrated track record of mentoring and retention.

Even in college recruiting (where I'd expect the greatest diversity of candidates), I can't recall any recent black applicants, and except for a somewhat higher ratio of women to men than the industry average, the ratios of college grads seem to track the industry ratios reasonably closely.

I concede that there is a bias towards college grads in industry and stated above, and that nothing is legally barring me from crafting some kind of Cinderella program to seek out possibly qualified candidates who avoided college or who failed to graduate. There would no doubt be some successful candidates that emerged from such a program.

The practical bar to that is my belief that any such single-company program would be utterly uncompetitive versus other efforts I could make in staffing. Opening an out of country office, while hard, is probably much less work per successful candidate, has a higher success rate, and often presents much more compelling economics.

If the above is remotely true, the shortest path to better prospects for minorities is to increase their college attendance, STEM majors, and graduation rates. It also has the practical advantage of having a high level of self-determination and influence; rather than waiting for me to fix their problem (where I necessarily have many competing priorities), they can take initiative to address their problem (where they naturally have more focus and vested interest in the specific outcome).

There is unlikely to emerge a single-company Cinderella type program that will markedly change the industry. The overhead costs are too much and the successes too few. A regional (or even national) charitable or educational institution may be able to move the needle (but even there, the shorter path might well be "encourage college and STEM participation rates")

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would socioeconomic class be highly correlated with gender? Is there some strange biologic selection mechanism at play?

Sometimes correlated with gender, such as the gender income gap. I don't know what you mean by biological selection.

>Sometimes correlated with gender, such as the gender income gap.

You mean the one that has been shown to not exist?

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly the same as saying that the reason women had little power in America before 1920 was because they couldn't vote. Which is true, but completely overlooks why women didn't have the right to vote. Women didn't have power because they were oppressed by men for centuries. Black people don't have "as good an education" because they've been systematically abandoned by the most powerful parts of society for c…

So the fix is to lower hiring standards? What exactly are you promoting as a fix here?

A "fix"? This isn't a compile-time error. This is the total disenfranchisement of entire classes or groups of people. There is no patch. The "fix" involves lots of difficult work.

First, we have to get people like you to understand what the problem is, which apparently is difficult to do. Then, we have to build empathy for the problems facing black people so you want to actually help them. Then we have to invest in developing social and economic equality within disadvantaged communities.

And hiring more diversely will not lower hiring standards. Please try to understand that.

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#184
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Lower hiring standards" is a myopic fallacy. You don't hire Jeff the amazing coder who likes to punch people in the face. Discounting the value of culture is a huge mistake. Humans work best when they are not treated as replaceable units of quantified productivity. Diverse cultures can attack problems with a broader perspective than homogenous cultures.

It's still not clear what you would have a hiring manager do today . I usually have several positions open at any given time; I don't even recall the last black applicant we've seen. I have talented co-workers of many different races (specifically including black), but even without visiting our office, you could guess the percentage breakdown and you wouldn't be far off. I can't hire applicants that don't exist and I…

The reason why you're not getting black applicants may include:

- It's hard to get hired by white companies, so a lot of black people stay within black-owned companies and communities.

- There are a lot of ways to search for and hire applicants; waiting for people to come to you will not necessarily result in the best candidate.

- Transportation is not as easy or available for poor or rural communities. It may be necessary to hire remote, or pay for relocation, or in the extreme cases open remote offices.

- The 'qualifications' may need to be revisited. What are you requiring as a qualification? Is it something a poor black person would have significantly more difficulty in achieving compared to a white person, due to socioeconomic disparities? Is it possible you could find other qualities that work as similar qualifications that black people might be more likely to have?

In order for there to be more black applicants, we need to help there to be more black applicants. This can mean many things, such as contacting local black communities and asking them what your company can do to help adults achieve a job at your company, or helping to improve the roadblocks for young kids to get a good education.

I know, I know; actually trying to help people can be a burden. But it will help people who continue to be oppressed by a society that does not care about them. You could continue to just wait for black people to work around the huge pitfalls society has set up for them, or you could help work to remove those pitfalls. It's up to you. Unfortunately.

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can shift your notions of "qualified". You can hire junior engineers and mentor and train them to be successful. Then you can proactively advertise your positions to programs and organizations that have more minority participation. Of course this takes more work for you, the hiring manager, in sourcing and on boarding. But there should be a burden on every hiring manager to correct the systemic diversity problems…

"Qualified" will always mean "can make a computer do things we need done" and that's not negotiable. We do hire at all experience levels and several of our successful squad leads are original college hires (having only worked with us), so we have some demonstrated track record of mentoring and retention. Even in college recruiting (where I'd expect the greatest diversity of candidates), I can't recall any recent blac…

Did I just read that your company doesn't try harder to hire black people because it would make your company less competitive?

I could be wrong, but i'm pretty sure I just read that your company intentionally avoids hiring disadvantaged black people in your own country because hiring minorities overseas is cheaper and easier.

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Qualified" will always mean "can make a computer do things we need done" and that's not negotiable. We do hire at all experience levels and several of our successful squad leads are original college hires (having only worked with us), so we have some demonstrated track record of mentoring and retention. Even in college recruiting (where I'd expect the greatest diversity of candidates), I can't recall any recent blac…

Did I just read that your company doesn't try harder to hire black people because it would make your company less competitive? I could be wrong, but i'm pretty sure I just read that your company intentionally avoids hiring disadvantaged black people in your own country because hiring minorities overseas is cheaper and easier.

I did not intend to say any such thing, do not believe that is true, and IMO, it takes a fairly tortured reading of my words to reach your conclusion.

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't believe this is due to any sort of racism, but rather due to the education system in general. You might consider reading the excellent paper, "Are Emily And Greg More Employable Than Lakisha And Jamal? A Field Experiment On Labor Market Discrimination": http://www.nber.org/papers/w9873 My take is that if tech really, truly has no race or gender discrimination problems, that would be remarkably different tha…

It is remarkably different. The amount of Asians/South Asians in tech is very high. If there were material racism, then you wouldn't see this. I don't know anyone who wouldn't hire a smart person based on their race. I'm sure it exists in small quantities, just like everywhere else, but I believe it's much smaller in tech than any other industry. The reason why there aren't a lot of blacks and Hispanics in tech I bel…

> If there were material racism, then you wouldn't see this.

This shows a very poor understanding of both the history of racism and modern-day racism.

> Nowhere did I discourage people from trying other solutions.

When you say "X is not the right way to solve the problem" and "The real way to solve the problem is Y" you are definitely saying other solutions are less legitimate than yours.

Given that this is a topic where you know little and admittedly aren't doing anything yet, maybe you could try listening to the people who have spent their lives studying and working on the problem?

> This is what a discussion consists of.

Not really. You making a series of bold, uninformed assertions doesn't make for much of a discussion. Indeed, your assumed mantle of superior insight harms the discussion.

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a remarkably facile understanding of racism, one that ignores both the model minority phenomenon as well as the fact that Asians are significantly underrepresented in management positions in the tech industry [1]. 1. http://www.npr.org/2015/05/17/407478606/often-employees-rare...

Well, then I should have said Indians.

You're doubling down on the "remarkably facile" thing. It's not a good look.

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Improved, maybe, but the fundamental problem is at the beginning. If we had a need for concert violinists, encouraging college students to take up violin is pretty late in the game. We need a technical prodigies and the people who can start late are few and far between.

Why is that? Just a personal observation, but I only actually started to understand programming my junior year of college and would find myself to be pretty technically proficient, and I know plenty of terrific developers who started of programming after a career in something completely unrelated (selling phones, painting, vet school). Yeah it's hard to start learning how to program and become efficient at it, but th…

Because by the late stages, people's loves and hates have already been defined. Things are cool or "I don't like X" has set in. If you don't love STEM early, you won't want to do it late. Attacking the issue later in the educational pipeline is like adding a cron job to restart the web servers because of crappy programming. The correct answer is to actually fix the problem. We've tried enough patches by now and it disgusts me that we are talking about diversity in tech when we are not talking about diversity in pre-K and K-8.

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't believe this is due to any sort of racism, but rather due to the education system in general. You might consider reading the excellent paper, "Are Emily And Greg More Employable Than Lakisha And Jamal? A Field Experiment On Labor Market Discrimination": http://www.nber.org/papers/w9873 My take is that if tech really, truly has no race or gender discrimination problems, that would be remarkably different tha…

It is remarkably different. The amount of Asians/South Asians in tech is very high. If there were material racism, then you wouldn't see this. I don't know anyone who wouldn't hire a smart person based on their race. I'm sure it exists in small quantities, just like everywhere else, but I believe it's much smaller in tech than any other industry. The reason why there aren't a lot of blacks and Hispanics in tech I bel…

> I don't know anyone who wouldn't hire a smart person based on their race.

You know lots of people who won't say they base decisions on race, and who think they're not basing decisions on race, but I bet if you double blind tested them with fake resumes you'd find bias.

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