What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech • Hacker News Board

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#181

Post by InclinedPlane » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 12:49 AM UTC

omonra wrote: post #178

I don't get something. There seems to always has been a problem of diversity in tech. Yet US has done just ok with males (white and asian) doing this stuff. Ie better than anybody else in the world. Why is this a problem (something the writer - who is a literature professor, by the way) considers a given? Is there any proof that increased diversity has any effect (except employment opportunities for the otherwise und…

How is it possible that you don't see the problem in this line of reasoning? Do you really not?

Edit: honestly, I'm curious how this mindset comes about. How is it possible to ignore the importance of people being given the opportunity to work wherever they are capable? How is it possible to ignore the impact of being denied access to an incredibly lucrative and glamorous industry? How is it possible to ignore the many ramifications that has on lives and livelihoods?

How would you feel if you were kept out of the tech industry? Would you be placated by sentiments that the industry was seemingly "doing just fine" without you?

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#182

Post by jleyank » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 12:50 AM UTC

dclowd9901 wrote: post #94

nmrm2 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the parent was complaining that things which definitely have nothing to do with STEM fields (sci-fi and star wars) were interspersed with things that are germanely related (computer parts and tech magazines). You wouldn't fault an anatomy course for having skeletons in the room or a Physics classroom for having copies of Science laying around, so the parent argues that it's also weird to tell technology educa…

> things which definitely have nothing to do with STEM fields (sci-fi and star wars) I respectfully disagree wholeheartedly. Many enter these industries because of their love for sci-fi. You'd be hard-pressed to find a Space X or NASA employee who wouldn't attribute at least some of their aspiration to the creations of Carl Sagan or Gene Rodenberry.

True but incomplete. Some of us got interested in scientific fields because we were interested in science (not science fiction). For me, it was a good teacher at a critical time in HS. Not a role model, as I did not and really do not wish to be a teacher. But somebody who opened a door into something that excited me.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#183

Post by jleyank » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 12:53 AM UTC

gaius wrote: post #7

if they are shown a classroom (whether virtual or real) decorated not with “Star Wars” posters, science-fiction books, computer parts and tech magazines, but with a more neutral décor — art and nature posters, coffee makers, plants and general-interest magazines This would seem to be a bit of a bait-and-switch... If you aren't interested in "computer parts and tech magazines" then what exactly is it about computing t…

I got into computers because they were amazing devices that I could make do things. I have no interest in hardware, other than using it to write software. Tech magazines are reference materials, and as such, aren't all that interesting. Professionally, I managed to combine my academic and hacker interests into spending decades making software that others can use to do THEIR work: solve problems, understand Nature, ...

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#184

Post by AdeptusAquinas » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 12:54 AM UTC

omonra wrote: post #178

I don't get something. There seems to always has been a problem of diversity in tech. Yet US has done just ok with males (white and asian) doing this stuff. Ie better than anybody else in the world. Why is this a problem (something the writer - who is a literature professor, by the way) considers a given? Is there any proof that increased diversity has any effect (except employment opportunities for the otherwise und…

Your argument seems to be basically: is 2 really a bigger number than 1? We are 1 right now, and the rest of the world is less than 1, so isn't that proof that its better? Show me the studies that prove 2 is better than 1.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#185

Post by TickleMeHellNo » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 12:55 AM UTC

InclinedPlane wrote: post #181

omonra wrote: post #178

I don't get something. There seems to always has been a problem of diversity in tech. Yet US has done just ok with males (white and asian) doing this stuff. Ie better than anybody else in the world. Why is this a problem (something the writer - who is a literature professor, by the way) considers a given? Is there any proof that increased diversity has any effect (except employment opportunities for the otherwise und…

How is it possible that you don't see the problem in this line of reasoning? Do you really not? Edit: honestly, I'm curious how this mindset comes about. How is it possible to ignore the importance of people being given the opportunity to work wherever they are capable? How is it possible to ignore the impact of being denied access to an incredibly lucrative and glamorous industry? How is it possible to ignore the ma…

This comment contributes a lot to the conversation.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#186

Post by jleyank » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 12:56 AM UTC

douche wrote: post #102

dclowd9901 wrote: post #77

> Over and over, Dr. Cheryan and her colleagues have found that female students are more interested in enrolling in a computer class if they are shown a classroom (whether virtual or real) decorated not with “Star Wars” posters, science-fiction books, computer parts and tech magazines, but with a more neutral décor — art and nature posters, coffee makers, plants and general-interest magazines. Sans the "general inter…

What is a "general-interest" magazine? Outside of something so vanilla as National Geographic, Time, or Newsweek, I can't think of magazines that aren't market-segment sliced-and-diced. Computer parts and tech magazines might be inevitable detritus of any office/area focused on working with technology. Do I have to lockup my programming books and hide away the spare components I'm working with?

The Economist? Scientific American? The New Yorker?

Are Time and Newsweek even being published anymore?

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#187

Post by rewqfdsa » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 12:56 AM UTC

omonra wrote: post #178

I don't get something. There seems to always has been a problem of diversity in tech. Yet US has done just ok with males (white and asian) doing this stuff. Ie better than anybody else in the world. Why is this a problem (something the writer - who is a literature professor, by the way) considers a given? Is there any proof that increased diversity has any effect (except employment opportunities for the otherwise und…

> Why is this a problem

First-order logic: if (A AND ~B -> ~C) AND C, then (~A OR B).

The persistence of the gender gap in technology despite decades of effort to "fix" it is an annoying refutation of the blank-slate theory of human nature on which the entire worldview of many people, particularly gender activists, rests. In other words, if it's simultaneously true that tech is gender-imbalanced and that there is no systemic discrimination involved in this gap, then groups of human being might have innate differences, and acceptance of this fact has far-reaching and upsetting consequences.

Therefore, there must be no gender gap or there must be systemic discrimination. Since the existence of the gender gap is obvious, there must be systemic discrimination, and the pundit class has been on the warpath trying to uphold this narrative and cherry-pick evidence supporting it.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#188

Post by AdeptusAquinas » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 12:58 AM UTC

rewqfdsa wrote: post #187

omonra wrote: post #178

I don't get something. There seems to always has been a problem of diversity in tech. Yet US has done just ok with males (white and asian) doing this stuff. Ie better than anybody else in the world. Why is this a problem (something the writer - who is a literature professor, by the way) considers a given? Is there any proof that increased diversity has any effect (except employment opportunities for the otherwise und…

> Why is this a problem First-order logic: if (A AND ~B -> ~C) AND C, then (~A OR B). The persistence of the gender gap in technology despite decades of effort to "fix" it is an annoying refutation of the blank-slate theory of human nature on which the entire worldview of many people, particularly gender activists, rests. In other words, if it's simultaneously true that tech is gender-imbalanced and that there is no…

In other words, correlation DOES imply causation right? And any evidence to the contrary is a conspiracy theory by the 'pundit class'.

Gender bias towards a given domain is a generational problem, like racism or homophobia and so on. Changes do not happen overnight, and because they haven't happened over night does not imply that 'white or asian men are innately better at tech than the other 95% of the population'.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#189

Post by ams6110 » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 12:58 AM UTC

wtbob wrote: post #166

jkyle wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Doing a google search of "top TV 2014" Hollywood has a history of being a canary in the coal mine when it comes to stereotypes...both good and bad. For example, when homosexuality started becoming more accepted in American culture one of the first signs were prominent gay sitcom characters.

> For example, when homosexuality started becoming more accepted in American culture one of the first signs were prominent gay sitcom characters. I suspect that was a cause, not an effect, of widening acceptance of homosexuality.

Disagree. In decades past, an acknowledged gay character on a prime-time show would have resulted in advertiser boycotts.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#190

Post by belovedeagle » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 1:00 AM UTC

dang wrote: post #2

This is a solid article that deserves a reasonable discussion, so we've turned off flags on it. Please keep the thread substantive and respectful.

I didn't get a reply last time I asked this in the same circumstances, but...

Will you also be flag-protecting articles which take different viewpoints? I ask because I've never seen a thread on any other topic or expressing any substantially different view on this topic have flags turned off, but perhaps that's just observation bias on my part.