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Bernie Sanders' 404 page

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Re: Bernie Sanders' 404 page

#181

Post by dragonwriter »

oluwie wrote: post #120
hyperbovine wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He favors European style social democracy. His whole point is that there actually exist functioning countries where health care is universal and free, college is accessible to all, gay people have rights, etc etc., and that America could be one of those countries if we wanted to. Btw I learned this by spending five minutes last night reading about him and watching a short interview, so I think your comment gives him…

The problem with the U.S. and why universal health care potentially wouldn't work is in terms of scale. The U.S. has over 300M people living in it, over 8x as much as the most populous European country. We also have a history of hating and evading taxes at all costs (Boston Tea Party). I'm not saying it can't work but the economics gets truly tricky when you're dealing with a country that big.

> The problem with the U.S. and why universal health care potentially wouldn't work is in terms of scale. The U.S. has over 300M people living in it, over 8x as much as the most populous European country. We also have a history of hating and evading taxes at all costs (Boston Tea Party).

So, set some very basic standards at the federal level and make the details and implementation a state responsibility. The largest US state is significantly smaller than the largest European country that provides universal healthcare, so that should solve that problem more than completely.

Re: Bernie Sanders' 404 page

#182

Post by hackuser »

microcolonel wrote: post #166
malkia wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of my bulgarian friends, and others, living here in America are thinking that taxes, free schools, even police, firefighting, etc. are just things that should go away. Essentially you have to pay, and be a "share-holder" in everything. You should be on top of things everywhere, etc. etc. And someone recently posted this on his fb page: "If a businessman makes a mistake, he suffers the consequences. If a bureauc…

That's my main gripe with this inclusion of every service and charity under the sun in government. Sure, most people consider these things important, and sometimes many people could stand to benefit if it all goes well; but ultimately the problem is that everyone is expected to simultaneously have opinions on every policy in every sector at once, and come to some voting decision based on that, furthermore that their…

> ultimately the problem is that everyone is expected to simultaneously have opinions on every policy in every sector at once

That's why people elect representatives, to do that for them. The U.S. is not a direct democracy.

Regardless, the problems are there and must be dealt with, however difficult that is. Ignoring problems because they are difficult would be a willful negligence. It would also be irresponsible to let people suffer, and also harm our entire community, because the problems are difficult and mechanisms imperfect.

Re: Bernie Sanders' 404 page

#183

Post by grecy »

slg wrote: post #176
grecy wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You missed the point entirely. Just because those things are available, you are not forced to use them. You would have the best of both worlds, because you would have more choices, not less like you have now.

You are asking me to defend a point that I disagree with, but as the argument goes, you pay for them regardless. Because these type of things are provided for the government, it means they are funded by tax dollars. I am therefore in a way participating in them because I have to pay for them. If I don't want 4 weeks of vacation, why should I pay for everyone else to get 4 weeks of vacation?

> If I don't want 4 weeks of vacation, why should I pay for everyone else to get 4 weeks of vacation?

You want to pay for things like that because it makes your society stronger and healthier overall.

You already pay for everyone to use the police, jails, firemen, roads, sidewalks, parks, libraries, courts, etc. etc. even though you probably don't use them, or use them frequently. Why do you pay for other people to use police, courts and jails?

Have you ever wondered why the crime rate in the US is so high compared to developed countries? One of the reasons is because people are very desperate. They have low education, no healthcare, so safety net, so they have nothing to lose. If you had "paid" for them to have those things, those people would be happier, healthier, and you wouldn't be 10 times more likely to be murdered than I am.

After 10 years in the US I went back to Australia for a few weeks and it slapped me in the face - there are very few desperate people in Australia. Even the lowest paid people have healthcare, education, own their own home and have toys like project cars.

That's just one example, but you need to stop thinking about "me, me, me" and think "us, us, us"

Re: Bernie Sanders' 404 page

#184

Post by hackuser »

alwaysAttending wrote: post #151
TimJRobinson wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who was born in Australia and now lives in Amsterdam I feel like he's the most sane politician in America. I still don't understand why Americans are so insistent on keeping their "Bad for the people, good for business" policies. If you're in the 1% sure that makes sense, but for everyone else life is so much nicer with free healthcare, good vacation time, maternity leave, good public transport, proper pri…

Part of it has to do with xenophobia and racism. Social Safety Net policy was more popular back when blacks were excluded. Throw in minorities, and people start singing a different tune. It's not like Europe is immune from this either. This is basically the platform of UKIP and the National Front. USA is much more diverse and has to deal with these issues up front. Except in Vermont, where the populace is 95% white.…

A counter-example: Cities are much more diverse and much more liberal than rural areas.

Re: Bernie Sanders' 404 page

#185

Post by grecy »

bmelton wrote: post #179
learc83 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a ridiculous article. It conveniently avoids overall GDP, by which the US is the richest in the world. In the first comparison they use GDP per capita, and in the second they use overall reserve currency? Then they use natural resources, but don't factor overall ability to exploit said resources. They're just picking metrics that don't favor the US.

But when we're talking about redistribution to individuals, GDP is a less good metric than GDP per capita. I agree that it dances around GDP, but I disagree that it is somehow the trump metric that makes everything work. On balance, we have less cash per resident than do countries with higher per capita GDP.

OK then, you're the 10th riches by most PPP measures [1]

So you still outrank the vast majority of Developed countries, but universal healthcare is too difficult?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PP...

Re: Bernie Sanders' 404 page

#186

Post by gjm11 »

malkia wrote: post #158
TimJRobinson wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who was born in Australia and now lives in Amsterdam I feel like he's the most sane politician in America. I still don't understand why Americans are so insistent on keeping their "Bad for the people, good for business" policies. If you're in the 1% sure that makes sense, but for everyone else life is so much nicer with free healthcare, good vacation time, maternity leave, good public transport, proper pri…

A lot of my bulgarian friends, and others, living here in America are thinking that taxes, free schools, even police, firefighting, etc. are just things that should go away. Essentially you have to pay, and be a "share-holder" in everything. You should be on top of things everywhere, etc. etc. And someone recently posted this on his fb page: "If a businessman makes a mistake, he suffers the consequences. If a bureauc…

> "If a businessman makes a mistake, he suffers the consequences. If a bureaucrat makes a mistake, you suffer the consequences." - Ayn Rand.

There is some truth in this. It is the almost-exact flip side of this: If a businessman does something right, he reaps the gains. If a bureaucrat does something right, you reap the gains.

... which doesn't sound so bad, now does it?

Neither is exactly correct. If the senior management of a large company make a big mistake, they aren't the only ones who lose: some employees may lose their jobs, the company may be less effective in providing customers with useful products or services, etc. And, conversely, if they do something very right, their employees may get bonuses or pay rises and their customers may get useful things to buy. And even government bureaucrats are likely to do better for themselves when they make good decisions than when they make bad ones.

But it's a reasonable approximation. On the whole and on average, businessmen are in business to benefit themselves, and fortunately it turns out that when you have lots of people doing that it brings benefits to everyone. On the whole and on average, government bureaucrats are in their jobs to benefit The People.

And, surprise surprise, if you focus only on the downside then you see businessmen hurting themselves and bureaucrats hurting The People. But it cuts both ways.

Re: Bernie Sanders' 404 page

#187

Post by a8da6b0c91d »

rmxt wrote: post #173
a8da6b0c91d wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trump has no extreme positions that I've heard. Totally mainstream populist. People are downvoting me, but if you don't realize that any policy comments Trump has put forth poll great you are just out of touch. You would be by definition "extreme."

Right, because calling Mexican immigrants to the United States "criminals, drug dealers, rapists" is a completely reasonable position. I'm sure that many of the 100+ million people in the United States that are non-white would definitely agree with that. http://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trumps-epic-statement-...

A lot of them do. And the white majority doesn't find the discussion around that point unreasonable. Like I said, you're just out of touch.

Re: Bernie Sanders' 404 page

#188

Post by 0xCMP »

a8da6b0c91d wrote: post #127
Someone1234 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sanders and Trump are doing well for similar reasons, they've both rejected the corruption which has become so commonplace in American politics. Trump is famously self-funded, and Sanders has a great grassroots campaign which has help keep him afloat. Neither has yet really resorted to corporate bribes. That's why you're seeing them do so well with their own respective bases. While it is undeniable that the general p…

Trump has no extreme positions that I've heard. Totally mainstream populist. People are downvoting me, but if you don't realize that any policy comments Trump has put forth poll great you are just out of touch. You would be by definition "extreme."

@rmxt It's not whether it's reasonable or not. Thats what people think and what they want. Those people vote too.

Re: Bernie Sanders' 404 page

#189

Post by gjm11 »

hackuser wrote: post #184
alwaysAttending wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of it has to do with xenophobia and racism. Social Safety Net policy was more popular back when blacks were excluded. Throw in minorities, and people start singing a different tune. It's not like Europe is immune from this either. This is basically the platform of UKIP and the National Front. USA is much more diverse and has to deal with these issues up front. Except in Vermont, where the populace is 95% white.…

A counter-example: Cities are much more diverse and much more liberal than rural areas.

The slightly bigger picture: People become less liberal when they are aware of the existence of other people Not Like Them with whom they're sharing a country, but become more liberal when they actually interact with those people.

(This is conjecture, but it seems awfully plausible and explains both the observations here.)

Re: Bernie Sanders' 404 page

#190

Post by bmelton »

grecy wrote: post #185
bmelton wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But when we're talking about redistribution to individuals, GDP is a less good metric than GDP per capita. I agree that it dances around GDP, but I disagree that it is somehow the trump metric that makes everything work. On balance, we have less cash per resident than do countries with higher per capita GDP.

OK then, you're the 10th riches by most PPP measures [1] So you still outrank the vast majority of Developed countries, but universal healthcare is too difficult? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PP...

I did not say that universal healthcare was too difficult.
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