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Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

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Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#171

Post by justizin »

vijayr wrote: post #74
Puts wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we need to start recognizing that this is just the sign of low intelligence. You can not argue with people who are judgmental. It's just like arguing with a drunk. Whatever you say is just waste of time and energy and by even going in to the discussion you let them drag you down to their level.

even going in to the discussion you let them drag you down to their level Not only that, it also encourages them to argue even more in future. These types of people have already formed an opinion and then search for reasons to believe what they chose to believe. The best thing to do in such situations is to walk away.

> The best thing to do in such situations is to walk away.

Unfortunately, if that is the reaction to something like a patch being rejected because it came from a woman, being non-confrontational and ignoring someone who is an idiot, but has power, galvanizes their idiotic power.

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#172

Post by stcredzero »

Balgair wrote: post #149
stcredzero wrote: post #88

The author is a friend of mine. What I say below is something I've discussed with her. I think the last great frontier for humanity's "waking up from history" is awareness of group psychology, particularly the psychology of the "other." Ironically, as noted by GCP Grey, widespread access to the Internet has actually made such group psychology worse . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc One of the big problems…

I agree with the initial thesis and would go so far as to say two of the top functions of 'education' are to create empathy for others and to create self-respect. However, I don't believe that the internet has made things worse; rather it has just uncovered what was already there. Also, trying to argue that our species reverts to the base programming is specious. If that were true, polygamy and murder would be the ru…

However, I don't believe that the internet has made things worse; rather it has just uncovered what was already there.

This is another way of saying the Internet has facilitated the appearance of more toxic noise in societal discourse. This is nothing new. Much the same was said with the advent of pamphlets and newspapers. No doubt, this is counterbalanced by the tremendous good it more communication has enabled.

Also, trying to argue that our species reverts to the base programming is specious.

This is a tremendous distortion of what I am saying. I am not saying that our species always reverts to base programming. I am saying that it does so given certain conditions. Are you trying to say that there is no mob psychology on the Internet? No, that would be just as much of a strawman of your position as you (probably inadvertently) just made of mine.

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#173

Post by logfromblammo »

onion2k wrote: post #126
[deleted] wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

Yes, it’s true that only 20 – 23% of tech workers are women. But less than twenty percent of high school students who choose to the AP Computer Science test are women. Perhaps women choose not to study computer science because they feel it'd be overly difficult to get in to an industry made up of 80% men. What if the fact there are relatively few women tech workers is the reason few women study it, and not the revers…

I don't believe that hypothesis is compatible with the available evidence.

As a counterexample, I offer the military industry. Under your hypothesis, the all-male military would have remained as such forever, because women would have seen the near-0% proportion of females in the military, and would never have attempted to join it. So how did the military get up to about 15% women?

Clearly, it was because at some point a decision was made to actually accept those who attempted to enlist, and not because the industry already had enough women in it to encourage the attempts to be made.

Nevertheless, it is still a perfectly testable hypothesis, and an experiment might still be in order before we go around saying it's no good.

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#174

Post by Nrsolis »

onion2k wrote: post #126
[deleted] wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

Yes, it’s true that only 20 – 23% of tech workers are women. But less than twenty percent of high school students who choose to the AP Computer Science test are women. Perhaps women choose not to study computer science because they feel it'd be overly difficult to get in to an industry made up of 80% men. What if the fact there are relatively few women tech workers is the reason few women study it, and not the revers…

I think you're supposing that young women have any inkling of what the tech industry is like. The overwhelming evidence is that they don't.

What is abundantly clear is that young women and men are influenced by cultural norms and act accordingly when choosing a path through life.

Most servers/flight attendants/nurses are women. At my sister's nursing school graduation, there was only a single man on stage to receive his BSN and he was a former medic in the Army.

What gives? There are plenty of women doctors now. Why don't men find nursing to be a rewarding and satisfying career option?

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#175

Post by krstck »

eseehausen wrote: post #160
Balgair wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the initial thesis and would go so far as to say two of the top functions of 'education' are to create empathy for others and to create self-respect. However, I don't believe that the internet has made things worse; rather it has just uncovered what was already there. Also, trying to argue that our species reverts to the base programming is specious. If that were true, polygamy and murder would be the ru…

> rather it has just uncovered what was already there Exactly! One of the interesting things that's happened is group discussions that would've taken place in private now often happen in very public places. Imagine, for instance, who would have access to the equivalent of Hacker News 100 years ago. Now, for better or worse, the community's discussions are out there and available for analysis not only by its own membe…

I kind of hate Twitter for this. For all the good it has done, it's made the more unsavory viewpoints a little too accessible and that allows people to construct whole narratives based on 5 tweets. Whereas those people's voices should be drowned out and lost in time, clickbait groups amplify them to spread outrage and make money.

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#176

Post by dmansen »

new_corp_dev wrote: post #113
lukeasrodgers wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a man, and feminist, and have spoken with many other feminists over the years, and read a lot of feminist literature, philosophy, cultural criticism, etc. In my experience I'd say less than 1% of feminism/feminists have anything to do with being against men. I'm having a hard time thinking of anything, actually, I could reasonably describe as promoting this view. Maybe some radical stuff from the 70s, like Fires…

Men are rapists and sexual offenders by default. Men are violent. If a man finds a woman physically attractive then he is objectifying her. Men should not be paid according to the merits of their work and ability. Men should not have any reproductive rights. Men should continue paying for a woman's lifestyle after a divorce. Men should recognize their "privilege" and be constantly reminded of it, even though being to…

wut

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#177

Post by ascendantlogic »

tome wrote: post #138
savanaly wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There had been interest, but one of the committers had dismissed the idea out of hand because a woman had proposed it. This also blows my mind. 100% of my colleagues and friends who work in programming would suffer severe whiplash from the double take they would take after reading a statement like that from someone we were working with. How would someone who says something like that in a non-joking way not be immed…

How would someone who says something like that in a joking way not be immediately ostracized?

Different people and groups have different tolerances for off-color humor. One person's humor is another person's outrage. Note that my response is not an endorsement of those sort of jokes.

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#178

Post by someDevOrOther »

tome wrote: post #138
savanaly wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There had been interest, but one of the committers had dismissed the idea out of hand because a woman had proposed it. This also blows my mind. 100% of my colleagues and friends who work in programming would suffer severe whiplash from the double take they would take after reading a statement like that from someone we were working with. How would someone who says something like that in a non-joking way not be immed…

How would someone who says something like that in a joking way not be immediately ostracized?

Maybe in the style of the old tv show "All in the Family" where an openly racist character often said racist things in a way that highlighted the foolishness of racism? Just guessing.

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#179

Post by justizin »

zo1 wrote: post #68
kohanz wrote: post #6

> There had been interest, but one of the committers had dismissed the idea out of hand because a woman had proposed it. It blows my mind that this stuff still happens. In the OSS world of all places. I can't even compute how someone can apply such "logic".

Why? I have seen ideas/suggestions blown off for equally vapid reasons. Sometimes they just don't like me, and don't like that I suggested it, for whatever reason that is. Why should a reason of "female" be special?

> Why should a reason of "female" be special?

It just is. It doesn't mean that vapid reasons are not vapid, but this isn't vapid, it's toxic.

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#180

Post by justizin »

venomsnake wrote: post #80
smacktoward wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My experience with women in tech is that they are smart, strong, foul mouthed, sarcastic, heavy drinkers and awesome dirty joke storytellers. In other words, they're "one of the guys." Which kind of summarizes the whole problem -- women who want careers in tech who aren't naturally "one of the guys" either have to learn to pretend that they are, denying their entire personality in order to fit in, or find another l…

Or there are a lot more women that can be "one of the guys" but their upbringing and the culture imposed onto them fucks them up?

> fucks them up?

How is not being "one of the guys" a result of having been fucked up?

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