Uber has defeated Bill de Blasio’s plan to rein them in • Hacker News Board

Re: Uber has defeated Bill de Blasio’s plan to rein them in

#171

Post by danieltillett » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 5:23 AM UTC

morgante wrote: post #162

danieltillett wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Given that, where do you think there is an opening? If it's so easy to compete with Uber on a micro level, why isn't Lyft beating it in any single market (despite $1b raised)? The market is going through a lot of innovation right now and what the end result will be is not known. I just can’t see how even if Uber wins that they have a way of preventing competition eroding their margins. All the regulation in the taxi…

> All the regulation in the taxi industry was driven by the players wanting to control the cut-throat competition that existed before regulation. The difference is that traditional taxis had no monopoly power. They were (and are) undifferentiated commodities—I don't even have any idea who owns a cab I'm in. Uber's network is a substantial moat which protects it from undifferentiated price competition. Again, how do y…

>Again, how do you propose that a competitor would build a viably competitive network in an Uber city?

I would pick mid-size markets and optimise for unit costs. I would settle on a single fuel efficient car model (or two) and then work on making my capital and servicing costs as low as possible. I would use trained and experienced employees and implement tracking technology to ensure that the drivers are polite, prompt, efficiently located, and don’t drive the vehicles like taxi drivers do (helping keep wear costs down). I would then bombard the local media market to achieve name recognition and app take up and then run a price war to gain market domination. Since I had optimised for unit cost I should be able to defend this domination against new entrants as long as I kept my pricing at just above my costs. I would make little profit, but my market would be defendable. Rinse and repeat in each new markets.

I don’t think such a business is worth the effort, but all it take is one person who does.

Re: Uber has defeated Bill de Blasio’s plan to rein them in

#172

Post by balls187 » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 5:25 AM UTC

jasonbarone wrote: post #100

Hominem wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As others have said, if the cab has the "on duty" light on, just get in. If, and the happens a lot late at night, the cab does not have the on duty light on you can negotiate. I've gotten steep discounts or even free rides for agreeing to do stuff like pick up the drivers wife off the clock on the way home. Like everything in New York, everything is negotiable.

But don't think you're safe there. If you have the slightest hesitation at all in your tonality, the driver will all of the sudden get a case of "I don't know that location, can you give me directions". I experienced that when I first moved here back to back one night because I didn't understand the "process" of getting a cab in New York. Point is, cabs are completely shady, and nearly all have horrible service. Sinc…

> It's unbelievable to me that people dislike Uber and think they're just some "scam" backed by venture capital.

There is a flip side to that, as well. Uber has engaged in questionable tactics, and their drivers are from the same pool as Taxi drivers.

I've had uber drivers accept the fare, then immediately cancel when they figured surge pricing will kick in. I've also had drivers not pick me up from my location, one who would not turn down their christian music when asked 3x.

Uber's support staff is good, and any hint of poor performance results in a 1-star review.

When I first used Uber, the drivers were great. Now with more uber drivers on the road, there is more variance in the service you get.

Re: Uber has defeated Bill de Blasio’s plan to rein them in

#173

Post by balls187 » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 5:28 AM UTC

Pyxl101 wrote: post #101

[deleted] wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

Uber drivers can see where you are as part of evaluating your ride request. Consequently, though your ride request might be offered to several drivers before being accepted, you are not likely to be assigned a driver who cancels later because of your location. Furthermore, Uber drivers are not allowed to refuse more than a certain small percentage of rides, so drivers who do this more than rarely will be kicked out.…

> Uber's star rating system and insistence on keeping drivers only with good ratings is part of why people enjoy using the service. Drivers can't pull shit like that and get away with it.

The star rating system works well, but given the number of drivers Uber churns through, you're still likely to poor service.

Re: Uber has defeated Bill de Blasio’s plan to rein them in

#174

Post by danieltillett » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 5:29 AM UTC

[deleted] wrote: post #167

danieltillett wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes network effects are real - the question is there much of a network effect with the taxi industry. History suggests there isn’t, but the current valuation of Uber suggests that a lot of smart money thinks there is such an effect.

[deleted]

>There is no history for something like UberPool

Actually there is a lot of history for this - go to any third world country and this is how most of the taxis for locals run. It is actually one of the outcomes of a lack of enforced regulation since competition drives unregulated drivers down this path.

Re: Uber has defeated Bill de Blasio’s plan to rein them in

#175

Post by balls187 » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 5:39 AM UTC

kansface wrote: post #32

littletimmy wrote: post #20

Pity. This modern day exploitation should end. Uber's huge profits are because they exploit people for labor. Ban it already.

Why don't you let the drivers make the decision for themselves.

I think that's fair, so long as they're presented with all the facts.

If there is any truth to the comments that claim many drivers quit after determining they make at or near minimum wage, it seems like they got into Uber believing that drivers can make $90,000 a year

Re: Uber has defeated Bill de Blasio’s plan to rein them in

#176

Post by morgante » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 5:47 AM UTC

danieltillett wrote: post #171

morgante wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All the regulation in the taxi industry was driven by the players wanting to control the cut-throat competition that existed before regulation. The difference is that traditional taxis had no monopoly power. They were (and are) undifferentiated commodities—I don't even have any idea who owns a cab I'm in. Uber's network is a substantial moat which protects it from undifferentiated price competition. Again, how do y…

>Again, how do you propose that a competitor would build a viably competitive network in an Uber city? I would pick mid-size markets and optimise for unit costs. I would settle on a single fuel efficient car model (or two) and then work on making my capital and servicing costs as low as possible. I would use trained and experienced employees and implement tracking technology to ensure that the drivers are polite, pro…

I don't think that's a viable strategy. If it were, Lyft would be successfully deploying it.

Namely, I see 3 primary flaws:

1. A marginally lower price is not by itself enough to achieve market penetration. If it takes 5-10 minutes longer to get a ride on your platform (due to fewer drivers), I'm not going to use it—even if you are 20% cheaper (wiping out Uber's entire margin).

2. You're ignoring the pooling savings which come from being able to easily coordinate shared rides due to a huge installed rider base.

3. Uber can spend you into the ground. They have a massive war chest and continued huge revenue from their mature markets—enough to undercut you until you run out of oxygen.

The biggest flaw of these 3 is that I just don't think price alone is sufficient to overcome network effects. If it were, the $100+ vouchers which I see also-ran competitors giving out would have made a dent in Uber's market share.

Competing against Uber in even a single city would require hundreds of millions in capital to basically buy your entire network overnight, and once you succeed in that market you'll enjoy less profitability than Uber does today.

There's a reason that crappy marketplaces like Ebay and Craigslist are incredibly sticky—networks are overwhelming.

A monopolist doesn't have to make its moat unbreachable, it just needs to be insufficiently profitable to overcome.

The only possible risk I see to Uber is from corrupt politicians.

Re: Uber has defeated Bill de Blasio’s plan to rein them in

#177

Post by snitko » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 5:49 AM UTC

Tomte wrote: post #159

HappyTypist wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, if that was true it would be a failure of the healthcare system ("society paying the bill" is just insurance with economies of scale). But that's not true. A lot of people are not aware of recent developments with uber. Uber offers commercial comprehensive insurance on all rides. When there is a passenger in the car, there is full commercial insurance. When there are no pax, many insurance providers DO…

You're simply wrong. Even if the healthcare system eats the cost (as it would in my country), it's not supposed to. That's akin to entering a health insurance contract and then demanding the insurer pays for the theft of your iPhone. Road traffic is insured by car insurers. The Uber driver doesn't have any, the car insurer therefore doesn't pay, so someone else pays. It doesn't matter if you rationalize it with "oh,…

So, I'm from Russia. In Russia, there's a great variety of cheap taxis, great mobile apps with reviews, gps location of taxis and stuff like that. Very good infrastructure. All simply because government doesn't regulate that.

I am yet to meet a single person complaining that this is bad. There is no increase in road accidents. The service is great. The drivers are very polite and are always on time. One must wonder, how can you be so blind to an obvious example of free market at work?

Re: Uber has defeated Bill de Blasio’s plan to rein them in

#178

Post by EpicEng » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 5:56 AM UTC

SilasX wrote: post #165

EpicEng wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's hardly the system at work. "The system" attempts to address this problem. Your issue is with the people driving the cabs, not regulation.

The problem happens systematically and the system fails to correct it because it lacks the proper alignment of incentives that keep it from working against the public. That's pretty much what corruption is. Would you say the same of third world traffic enforcement because the system is trying to stop the practice of shaking down motorists?

Yeah, that's a good point. The system isn't working, and it is what it is.

Re: Uber has defeated Bill de Blasio’s plan to rein them in

#179

Post by sillygeese » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 6:00 AM UTC

jrockway wrote: post #48

I don't really like Uber's business practices but they do fill an essential niche in New York City. A couple years ago, the city allowed independent car services to paint their cars green and take street hails. They previously did this, of course, but it wasn't legal. And of course, not every "black car" became a green cab, so this still happens. It's the standard way to get around the outer boroughs of New York. I w…

> A couple years ago, the city allowed independent car services to paint their cars green and take street hails.

Does anyone else see the absurdity in that? Compare to: "In 2014, the city allowed people to wear green socks"

If you want to transport people for a fee, what rational, moral justification is there for anyone to intervene in that? -To decide what colour your car should be, or where you can pick up customers?

Re: Uber has defeated Bill de Blasio’s plan to rein them in

#180

Post by davmre » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 6:11 AM UTC

vacri wrote: post #121

jrockway wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have had a case of an Uber driver not really wanting to drive me to Marina del Ray from downtown LA. He gave me a low review (this was back when there was the bug that let you see your rating). The biggest problem I have with Uber is that some of the drivers are so pleasant and professional that I hate not being able to give them an extra tip. Maybe I should figure out how to do that.

> Maybe I should figure out how to do that. Why wouldn't cash work?

There's basically no reason for me to carry cash in my daily life. Uber of all companies should be working to facilitate that trend, not impede it.