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Dropdowns Should Be the UI of Last Resort

lukew.com

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Re: Dropdowns Should Be the UI of Last Resort

#171

Post by simoncion »

vortico wrote: post #21

>4 tap operation Click dropdown, select item >Stepper Click +, click +, click +, click +, click +, click +, click + wut

Every decent "stepper" [0] I've used allows you to both place the cursor within the bounds of the widget and spin the mousewheel [1] to rapidly change the value, and click the value displayed in widget in order to type in a new value.

[0] I've always heard them called "spinners".

[1] You could probably emulate this with something like a two-fingered horizontal swipe starting in the widget

Re: Dropdowns Should Be the UI of Last Resort

#172

Post by function_seven »

err4nt wrote: post #145
DanBC wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> http://www.rgd.ca/ Does it change your mind at all that you linked to a zoomable site? EDIT: and an organisation that produced accessibility guides that tell you not to disable zoom? http://rgd-accessibledesign.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/R... > any low-vision users have software-based screen magnifiers. Sometimes they augment the magnifier with text-to-speech software when reading longer passages of text. [...]…

>Does it change your mind at all that you linked to a zoomable site? No, I said I decide based on the needs of the project and which devices will be supported which META tag makes the most sense. Not 100% of my projects disable zooming, and I don't believe 100% of sites should disable zooming. Zooming is a useful feature added to mobile browser that does serve a purpose: to allow the user to navigate a site that was…

> Please, tell me the reasons why zooming on a legible, usable design is necessary

Because what is "legible, usable" to most users still isn't to some. Not all of us have good eyesight. Some of us have horrendous eyesight. You may think that 16pt text is "legible", but for some users, nothing less than 32pt is readable.

Don't be hostile to those people.

Re: Dropdowns Should Be the UI of Last Resort

#173

Post by abakker »

err4nt wrote: post #155
michaelt wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you able to articulate 5 or more of those plentiful reasons? At times I have zoomed in or out because: 1. I'm further away from the screen, because my screen is large. 2. I'm further away from the screen, because I am showing a website to a friend or colleague. 3. I'm displaying the site on a projector, and people at the back of the room say they can't see. 4. I'm viewing a website on my colleague's high-dpi disp…

I feel like a lot of these complaints are endemic to defining things in CSS using 'px' as units instead of more sensible (and repsonsive) modern techniques like defining type in 'pt' and widths in more complex units (percents, or mixed units). It's possible to avoid a lot of these pitfalls with better design. 1. User far from big screen: You can zoom much faster and easier with your forearm than a pinch gesture 2. Us…

If the site can render responsively, is there a reason it can't be zoomed?

Both the reasons looking for zoom, and your reasons for not providing it seem reasonable. Is there some technical barrier for not enabling zoom?

Zoom is a first-class gesture on mobile, it is the second one after scrolling that you always expect to be there. On a desktop, you generally have more desktop than you need for a window, so it is possible to resize the window to adjust the size of the viewport. Responsive sites work nicely in the case. On mobile, there is no "window" and the device's dimensions themselves are the viewport. You can reorient the device to enable changing the width, but without zoom, you are taking away any ability to change the viewport.

Maybe zoom isn't a critical feature, but it is part of how the devices work. As a result, it is an expected interaction for those on mobile. Have you ever used a piece of desktop software where you couldn't resize the window - it drives you crazy. Ignoring expected behavior is contrary to good usability.

Re: Dropdowns Should Be the UI of Last Resort

#175

Post by err4nt »

abakker wrote: post #173
err4nt wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like a lot of these complaints are endemic to defining things in CSS using 'px' as units instead of more sensible (and repsonsive) modern techniques like defining type in 'pt' and widths in more complex units (percents, or mixed units). It's possible to avoid a lot of these pitfalls with better design. 1. User far from big screen: You can zoom much faster and easier with your forearm than a pinch gesture 2. Us…

If the site can render responsively, is there a reason it can't be zoomed? Both the reasons looking for zoom, and your reasons for not providing it seem reasonable. Is there some technical barrier for not enabling zoom? Zoom is a first-class gesture on mobile, it is the second one after scrolling that you always expect to be there. On a desktop, you generally have more desktop than you need for a window, so it is pos…

> Is there some technical barrier for not enabling zoom?

“Safari on iOS displays webpages at a scale that works for most web content originally designed for the desktop. If these default settings don’t work for your webpages, it is highly recommended that you change the settings by configuring the viewport. You especially need to configure the viewport if you are designing webpages specifically for iOS.”

https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/AppleA...

Zooming is enabled by default on Mobile Safari as a feature to help mobile users navigate sites not designed for mobile.

Apple intentionally added many different ways to control the viewport, including the ability to disable zoom.

“Setting the viewport width should be the first task when designing web applications for iOS to avoid the user zooming in before using your application.”

So it very much sounds like Apple has added this functionality as a usability feature to help mobile users navigate sites designed without regard to their specific hardware, Apply strongly recommends setting the viewport specifically for the pages you design with iOS in mind. Also note, when looking through Apple's documentation that they refer to the gesture as 'zooming' and the feature in Mobile Safari as 'user scaling.

Re: Dropdowns Should Be the UI of Last Resort

#176

Post by brudgers »

simoncion wrote: post #168
brudgers wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used a browser and a keyboard to hit the address bar and enter the URI and type my comment. Logging into HN did not required HTTPS, not GUI.

Did you know that even Lynx is properly considered a GUI? It's a text-mode GUI, but a GUI nonetheless. Edit: To figure out where you're coming from: do you consider text editors like vim, nano, and pico to be GUIs or CLIs? Why do you hold this opinion?

Ed is a visual line editor, and if that's a GUI then we can stop talking about PARC and just agree that Brainfuck is as good as Python via Turing Completeness while we're at it.

If it's the turtles all the way down, any blinking light becomes a GUI, for what is a pixel?

Re: Dropdowns Should Be the UI of Last Resort

#177

Post by JupiterMoon »

simoncion wrote: post #168
brudgers wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used a browser and a keyboard to hit the address bar and enter the URI and type my comment. Logging into HN did not required HTTPS, not GUI.

Did you know that even Lynx is properly considered a GUI? It's a text-mode GUI, but a GUI nonetheless. Edit: To figure out where you're coming from: do you consider text editors like vim, nano, and pico to be GUIs or CLIs? Why do you hold this opinion?

He gets the content using wget and then posts directly using POST...

Re: Dropdowns Should Be the UI of Last Resort

#178

Post by abakker »

err4nt wrote: post #175
abakker wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the site can render responsively, is there a reason it can't be zoomed? Both the reasons looking for zoom, and your reasons for not providing it seem reasonable. Is there some technical barrier for not enabling zoom? Zoom is a first-class gesture on mobile, it is the second one after scrolling that you always expect to be there. On a desktop, you generally have more desktop than you need for a window, so it is pos…

> Is there some technical barrier for not enabling zoom? “Safari on iOS displays webpages at a scale that works for most web content originally designed for the desktop. If these default settings don’t work for your webpages, it is highly recommended that you change the settings by configuring the viewport. You especially need to configure the viewport if you are designing webpages specifically for iOS.” https://deve…

OK, so you're suggesting that we not enable a "usability feature" because Apple's guidelines suggest that there are alternative ways to specify the correct viewport?

I get the design angle, and I don't disagree that setting the correct viewport is a good idea, but you shouldn't assume that good design and correctly setting the viewport will work for everybody. The fact remains that the zoom gesture is critical on mobile, and disabling it does not help anybody use your site.

On responsive sites, the idea behind them is that the site does its best guess of being responsive based on the size of the viewport. However, sometimes it doesn't work out, sometimes the websites behavior isn't as intended, sometimes the designer didn't test with my exact device, size, eyesight, etc. It is nice in those cases that I can make up for the site not being designed for my mobile by using the zoom feature as intended.

Re: Dropdowns Should Be the UI of Last Resort

#179

Post by marcosdumay »

err4nt wrote: post #155
michaelt wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you able to articulate 5 or more of those plentiful reasons? At times I have zoomed in or out because: 1. I'm further away from the screen, because my screen is large. 2. I'm further away from the screen, because I am showing a website to a friend or colleague. 3. I'm displaying the site on a projector, and people at the back of the room say they can't see. 4. I'm viewing a website on my colleague's high-dpi disp…

I feel like a lot of these complaints are endemic to defining things in CSS using 'px' as units instead of more sensible (and repsonsive) modern techniques like defining type in 'pt' and widths in more complex units (percents, or mixed units). It's possible to avoid a lot of these pitfalls with better design. 1. User far from big screen: You can zoom much faster and easier with your forearm than a pinch gesture 2. Us…

> I feel like a lot of these complaints are endemic to defining things in CSS using 'px' as units instead of more sensible (and repsonsive) modern techniques like defining type in 'pt' and widths in more complex units (percents, or mixed units).

What? Isn't px a fixed multiple of pt, with an actual size that varies by platform?

Re: Dropdowns Should Be the UI of Last Resort

#180

Post by marcosdumay »

err4nt wrote: post #128
epistasis wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please please stop disabling zoom. I beg of you, I have to abandon sooo many sites because they are unreadable because I can't zoom. >I am a formally trained designer and I design UI properly for the devices and hardware my projects are intended to be accessed with. If designers were actually licensed, I think that disabling zoom should be an offense that results in a 2-year revocation of design license. It's so user…

These aren't my user pleas, and these users haven't even seen my sites. We do listen to our users, and there absolutely IS such thing as licensing in this industry: http://www.rgd.ca/

Well, you shouldn't expect people that can not use your site to use your site...
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