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How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

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Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But even if we took the argument as fact, it doesn't mean that we have to accept every naive consequence. We don't need to say "Of course the vast majority of CEOs, world leaders, and very wealthy people are male, because the most intelligent people are almost all male". We can choose to have a better society than that. I don't think that intelligence is the most important factor for those positions, so let's talk…

Well, there is a reason why I chose those examples. I'm not arguing for diversity at all costs, which seems like what you're arguing against. I'd say in general having researchers and university teachers that are intelligent is good. Diversity is also good. There should be a balance - I think that diverse researchers and teachers can solve problems that a homogenous group of researchers would never solve. For example…

Diversity is also good. There should be a balance

There's a huge assumption built into this, about what dimensions of diversity are virtuous. Our society places great value on showing diversity on scales of gender and race, and to a lesser extent also on religion and more recently, gender identity.

Why are these demographics the ones for which we should be endeavoring to ensure diversity? Why shouldn't we strive to find a balance between, say, people from an urban background versus those from a rural background? Or people with fluency in various languages? Or "morning people" versus "night people", or those who prefer to file things versus those who stack papers on their desk, or left- versus right-handed?

Having variations along all these dimensions, and countless others, would also bring greater variation in world view, and thus presumably improve the pool of ideas that could drive their work. So why is it that seeking diversity in race and sex is paramount, while finding someone from out in the countryside is never even thought of?

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#172
The six primary programmers of ENIAC were all women: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ENIAC .

Can we conclude, then, taking that as our sample, that programming is naturally "women's work"?

If the preponderance of women in programming at that time was just a fluke then it's not unimaginable that the preponderance of men in programming at this time is also a fluke.

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#173

I'm surprised to see this ranking so high on HN. Sex-based difference is the biggest taboo of our time. The current educational and political system is organized toward exclusively presenting the view that gender is a cultural construct and there are no differences between men and women other than plumbing. Men and women, on average, differ significantly on career choice, likes, dislikes, and motivation. And, it has…

A large part of the problem is the failure to distinguish between the aggregate and the individual. For the sake of argument let's say that the population of individuals who would make good engineers is 60% male and 40% female. From an aggregate level that's a huge difference. Once you gather enough of people that statistical inferences can be made, the difference becomes obvious. In a classroom, for instance. But at…

Right. You have to make your laws and policies blind to difference, even though they're necessarily operating at the aggregate level where there are differences, so that individuals don't suffer. An interesting example where willfully disregarding statistics is actually beneficial.

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure who's doing the harassing: http://terfisaslur.com

That site is lies and propaganda run by a hate group. "TERF" is no more of a slur than "Neo-Nazi" or "rapist", and all those groups are the scum of the earth. There is no moral difference between a TERF and a member of Stormfront or a known rapist.

That's a pretty ridiculous claim. I'm clearly not going to convince you of anything, but for anyone following this thread you can read http://www.troubleandstrife.org/new-articles/you-are-killing... for what I found was a level-headed explanation of the divide between trans activists and the so called "TERF"s.

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#175
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just "academics". It's anyone who can take an idea and successfully run with it, without stopping to notice all the signs that are yelling at them "Stop! This isn't working as you expected!" Academia merely happens to have a large concentration of such people, for structural reasons. (The "ivory tower" is a real effect, and it is both a good thing because it permits concentration and focus, and a bad thing,…

Academics have approximately zero power. This is the craziest conspiracy theory I've seen in a while, because it's just so obviously wrong. Oh yes, college professors need to be kept in check because otherwise they'll go out and kill all the Jews. WTF?

You don't understand, recognizing sex differences leads to industrial-scale mass murder, just like it has in every human society that has ever recognized sex differences. Wake up sheeple!

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#176
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Academics have approximately zero power. This is the craziest conspiracy theory I've seen in a while, because it's just so obviously wrong. Oh yes, college professors need to be kept in check because otherwise they'll go out and kill all the Jews. WTF?

Go research where Lenin came from. Go research who did eugenics, and where they got their ideas from. Go research the origin of a lot of the Nazi figures and where their ideas came from. (Not just Hitler.) Express all the humorous strawmen you like. How do you think these things happen? In the 20th century, the only bad social engineering event I can think of that could even remotely be considered the outgrowth of a…

Oh yes, the dominant ideology of academia is the same as that of the state, which is why academics universally agree that anthropogenic global warming is real while the government can't even agree on whether climate is changing at all, let alone the cause. This must be why universities are chronically underfunded and professors are constantly scrambling for their next research grant. This must be why roughly nobody in the top levels of government has so much as a PhD. The tight link between the two explains why governments persist in outlawing drugs even though research shows it's more effective to legalize them. I could go on, but I think you get the idea.

Looks to me like Lenin graduated from university but didn't go anywhere near an advanced degree. I'm not sure which Nazis you're referring to but I'm not aware of a particularly large number of university professors among the ranks of the top Nazis.

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#177
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It appears you're right. However, I find it puzzling that it's mentioned here, since the gulf between "there are some genetic differences between the sexes" and "let's attempt to improve the human gene pool by murdering any group we find displeasing" is so great that they barely have any relationship at all.

It's not about murdering people. The problem is, if you support policies that disadvantage people based on their genetics, you can gradually dehumanize those people. The (real) disadvantages of that outweigh the (supposed) advantages.

OK, but the gulf between that and "there is some genetic differences between the sexes" is still so large that you'd need a powerful telescope to see from one to the other.

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A large part of the problem is the failure to distinguish between the aggregate and the individual. For the sake of argument let's say that the population of individuals who would make good engineers is 60% male and 40% female. From an aggregate level that's a huge difference. Once you gather enough of people that statistical inferences can be made, the difference becomes obvious. In a classroom, for instance. But at…

Actually, no. When you pick out an individual there's still a 60% chance than one is better than the other given no other information than their sex. That's how statistics works. But I agree that it's better not to make the prejudgement at all. The problem is that there are many things that are true in the aggregate but we can't acknowledge them because we are scared of demotivating people. Is that the best we can do…

That is not how statistics works. This is how you reverse a conditional probability (Bayes's Rule):

  P(B|A) = P(A|B) * P(B) / P(A)
If A is "female" and ~A is "male", and B is "good engineer", then what we know , including ancestor post's assumption, is this:

  P(A|B) = 0.4 (the population of known-good engineers is 40% female)
  P(A) = 0.5 (the population as a whole is 50% female)
We can further assume, arbitrarily, that P(B) = 0.02 (one in every fifty people make good engineers). So the likelihood that a person is a good engineer given that they are female is P(B|A).

  P(B|A) = 0.4 * 0.02 / 0.5 = 0.016
  P(B|~A) = 0.6 * 0.02 / 0.5 = 0.024
What we learn from this is that sex is not a good screening criterion for finding good engineers. You realize an advantage of only 0.8%, not 60%.

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It appears you're right. However, I find it puzzling that it's mentioned here, since the gulf between "there are some genetic differences between the sexes" and "let's attempt to improve the human gene pool by murdering any group we find displeasing" is so great that they barely have any relationship at all.

There's also the eugenicist argument that the undesirables shouldn't be permitted to procreate. For example, Margaret Sanger didn't want to round up people and exterminate them but she did want to keep them from reproducing.

Given that procreation requires one man and one woman to participate, it's going to be really hard to practice eugenics based on genetic differences between the sexes.

Re: How Can There Still Be a Sex Difference, Even When There Is No Sex Difference?

#180

I'm surprised to see this ranking so high on HN. Sex-based difference is the biggest taboo of our time. The current educational and political system is organized toward exclusively presenting the view that gender is a cultural construct and there are no differences between men and women other than plumbing. Men and women, on average, differ significantly on career choice, likes, dislikes, and motivation. And, it has…

> Sex-based difference is the biggest taboo of our time.

The problem is that correlating things with sex (even when such a correlation seems apparent) is just as bad as correlating things with race, ethnicity, religion, age, index finger length, eye color, and pretty much anything else.

It disadvantages those in the arbitrarily-designated outgroup, and subjects everyone to the Fallacy of Composition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_composition.

Which means that you're STILL ideally stuck on evaluating each person on an individual level, anyway.

Correlating things to something like blood serum testosterone level would make more sense to me, than an entire sex.

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