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Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers

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Re: Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers

#171
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple takes 30% of app store purchases, in-app purchases, and iAd revenue. Google takes 30% of Google Play purchases and in-app products. 30% is a reasonable share for the maintainer of a network to take. As for the 25% to the author of the mod, that does seem unfair, but I don't think that was Valve's decision. I think they left that up to the game producer, Bethesda in this case. Bethesda chose how to split the rem…

You say a share is fair when it's what the market currently offers. That's obviously a remarkably stupid definition of fair.

Generally on HN we like to say why we think something is bad, rather than merely labelling it as stupid.

Free market value is a common measure of fairness. You might disagree (eg, you could argue Steam has a monopoly on PC gaming, likewise non-official app stores are rare on cell phones, so it's not a free market), but you should state why.

Re: Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers

#172
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

75% should go to the modders. If people are buying the mod, then the mod developer deserves most of the cash for the mod purchase. Remember, the player needs to buy the original game too. Those funds don't go to the mod developer.

You misunderstood. 75% is not to the mod developer, 75% was to Bethesda, and 25% to the mod developer. This is what pissed people off. (Also, the developer would only get paid if he got 100 USD to receive, meaning that he needed 400 USD in sales, meaning that probably most developers would never get any money).

[deleted]

Re: Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers

#173
post #42
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ditto. I'd quite happily pay for mods - they add value, there's more a chance of bugs being fixed, Steam would make installation less of a hassle. But 25% going to the authors is awful. The game's original creators - who already benefit from increased sales - additionally get more of the revenue than the actual mod creator.

In business terms, you could consider giving a cut to the modders a marketing expense (you might sell more because the mods increase the value of your game, perhaps?). But you can also consider it as providing a platform that modders exploit commercially, and you can squeeze them as much as is sensible in any commercial relationship. I think the number of people buying a game because of a mod is rather small, so busi…

Really? I'd never buy Half Life 1, since late 90s graphics looks pretty poor these days, but I'd happily pay for it to use Black Mesa.

Better yet - from another post here:

> "How many copies of Arma 2 were sold explicitly because of DayZ? How many copies of Half-life were sold because of Counter Strike? Warcraft 3 and Dota? etc."

Re: Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers

#174
post #160

Although I think people should be rewarded for their work I don't really don't like where this is headed. As others have noted the statement from Valve reads as if paid mods are definitely coming in a not so distant future. Modders getting paid is all well and dandy until you consider the way mods often evolve and build on top of each other. I spent a lot of my time as a young teenager on the custom ladder in Warcraf…

I think you make a good point and I agree that I think money will corrupt some aspects of the modding community. But I wonder if the net result will improve it overall?

Providing compensation may allow teenagers to justify their time spent on mods leading to more time and energy spent and offer them an early and valuable taste of the business world.

On the other hand innovation usually comes from the ground up. Look at Valve's most profitable title right now, (Dota) that was a mod of WarCraft. Had it been a paid mod it may have stifled the contributions and evolution of the game. Valve may very well be poisoning the pond they're fishing in?

Re: Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers

#175
post #123
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The core of the issue came down to the effects on the modder community. 1. Modders are hobbyists, not professionals. Many modders came right out and said they would no longer make mods under this system, because the pressure to charge means it becomes a job. They no longer would have the option to just walk away from the mod. 2. Piracy. Modders have explicitly made their mods available for free. Once you have a syste…

In the end, most modders don't WANT to be paid for their mods, because it's not a profession. That's an interesting perspective. Sounds like there are some valid criticisms of the system Valve has put in place. To me it seems that gamers have cut off their nose to spite their own face in this regard. It seems to me that a paid modding ecosystem would be a big win in favor of gamers. If lone hobbyists can improve a ga…

>It seems to me that a paid modding ecosystem would be a big win in favor of gamers. If lone hobbyists can improve a game so much, can you imagine if a studio of 5-10 could make a viable living from modding?

I think the worry is that the move would have killed the lone hobbyists. Even though you could argue that this feature is pure value-added as it doesn't stop anyone from modding the same way as before, it would have reshaped the community. So you'd have a few great mods by semi-professional studios but it could also discourage the hundreds of passionate modders who enjoy putting quality before marketability. In my opinion, the Android and iOS app stores are a good example of this.

Re: Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers

#176
The weirdest part of this whole affair is that they started with Skyrim, when Skyrim's mod support through Steam Workshop is fundamentally flaky.

All the really thorough mods (AV, SkyRE, PerMA, Requiem, ASIS, DSR, FNIS, etc) use third-party patchers and automated load order management, which Steam Workshop can't handle at all since all it basically does for Skyrim is dump files in a folder.

At least for it, it all adds up to "even if there are ones worth purchasing, why would I buy mods through Steam Workshop when I have to manage them all outside of Steam Workshop in the first place to use a large number of mods at once?"

Re: Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers

#177
post #160

Although I think people should be rewarded for their work I don't really don't like where this is headed. As others have noted the statement from Valve reads as if paid mods are definitely coming in a not so distant future. Modders getting paid is all well and dandy until you consider the way mods often evolve and build on top of each other. I spent a lot of my time as a young teenager on the custom ladder in Warcraf…

First; I wanted to just nerd out a little with you, because the custom ladder you describe were the crucible of my gaming habits as well (geek cred, I think I even have some screenshots somewhere of when I was playing a Wintermaul clone with duke himself, from decades ago) :)

Second, I wanted to echo that there's a concerning parallel between paid vs free mods and free to play gaming. In both, I think the proposed solution _COULD_ be better. Some mods are ridiculous. (Skyrim on Morrowind? Some of the system shock 2 total overhauls?) I would _love_ easy, consistent, and safe channels to compensate the authors, and some sort of paid system seems fair in that sense. Similarly, if a game can be released free and keep passive costs going through balanced means (Path of Exile comes to mind) you CAN walk the line of "ethical microtransactions" or whatever the hell you call it nowadays.

But it's SO EASY now to point out failures in the f2p model, games that just gave up any attempt at legitimacy to pursue profit (which can be far more... subversive, in a f2p environment as opposed to selling traditional games, e.g. zynga). The worst part to this, to me, is that it's becoming the norm, as you say. People "are OK with it", and it eventually becomes accepted practice, and games that were once pillars of buy to play (guild wars 1 comes to mind) have sequels that essentially let you whip out a credit card for most of the end game gear, and fans who will _FIGHT_ you if you suggest this in any way moves towards "bad f2p".

I see a lot of potential for the cornucopia of modding creativity and availability we saw to fade in preference for monitization, and the true impact of this may not be seen for decades. (Is there really a difference in gamers who grow up being inspired by and playing with the hilariously accessible mods all over the place, and those who just play box products, or mods blackboxed so they behave as such? Selfishly, I can't but think so.)

Re: Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers

#178
post #53
post #32

Let's not underestimate what Valve has done here. At first they tried to give passionate content providers a way to also make some money. That's a huge thing. Most modders can tell you about it. Then they screwed up, which can happen if you try something the first time. I think it's okay, but I understand why people are pissed. Then the boss himself comes and talks to people on reddit to see what is going on. He gets…

Actually, I think both launching it and canceling it were ill-conceived moves. The first - obviously didn't align well with the community's (more like the mod users) intentions. The canceling - Upset quality producing modders who think they should be compensated for their time and effort, and now makes them part "part of valve's greediness" in the eyes of users. Seems like they didn't think all the way through in bot…

I think and hope that they will try again with another game that isn't out yet or at least has no strong mod community yet. That's what they decided as the biggest problem, experimenting on a big community instead of a small one.

Re: Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers

#179
post #90
post #32

Let's not underestimate what Valve has done here. At first they tried to give passionate content providers a way to also make some money. That's a huge thing. Most modders can tell you about it. Then they screwed up, which can happen if you try something the first time. I think it's okay, but I understand why people are pissed. Then the boss himself comes and talks to people on reddit to see what is going on. He gets…

Hijacking for visibility (I'm so late to the party..) Valve has not ended the paid mods programme. They've only turned it off for Skyrim. From the Valve post: > We're going to remove the payment feature from the Skyrim workshop. They're very explicitly removing it only from Skyrim. Personally, I'm completely okay with the paid mod system - and I think the reason it failed so spectacularly was because of Bethesda and…

Yes, sorry, didn't say that clearly enough. The real mistake here was starting with the biggest mod community they have. You should first try to find a good system without being so public about it. And that's what they will change. Iterating with a smaller project.

Re: Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers

#180
post #80
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't been paying extra close attention to the whole fiasco, but there's something that I don't understand. Are people really more in favor of modders getting 100% of $0 rather than 25% of $X? Is there more to this debate that I'm missing?

The core of the issue came down to the effects on the modder community. 1. Modders are hobbyists, not professionals. Many modders came right out and said they would no longer make mods under this system, because the pressure to charge means it becomes a job. They no longer would have the option to just walk away from the mod. 2. Piracy. Modders have explicitly made their mods available for free. Once you have a syste…

> Many modders came right out and said they would no longer make mods under this system, because the pressure to charge means it becomes a job.

Unless I'm missing something, nothing happened that would have forced mod makers to start charging, right?

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