Earlier quoted context omitted.
Opera, Chrome and Chromium are based off the same engine which is a fork of WebKit. If anything competition has gone down the last couple of years with WebKit based browsers becoming the standard despite its bugs & non-standard behavior. It reminds me of IE6 in its heyday.
No web developer worth his salt writes code for any one browser. You write code to the standard and test in browsers. Anyone doing differently should be fired on the spot. I'm not aware of any professional web developer who does that.
The birth of Microsoft's new web rendering engine
171–180 of 247 posts
Re: The birth of Microsoft's new web rendering engine
#172Earlier quoted context omitted.
For Devs to use their browser, sure. But if it is pre-installed on my mom's Windows machine, she'll be using it. They still have that as a huge advantage. So kudos to them for at least trying to correct mistakes legitimately this time.
Their problem is more that it's not installed on Mum's phone or tablet. :)
There's a raft of really cheap (7/8/10 inch) Windows 8.1 tablets that are price competitive with their Android equivalents. At the moment they are running full Windows with an Intel Atom processor. From what I've read, these will all be capable of being upgraded to Windows 10 when release.
Spartan is going to be released for both Windows Phone 10 (or whatever they are calling it) in addition to Windows 10, from what I've read.
Re: The birth of Microsoft's new web rendering engine
#173Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Make one version of Spartan and keep it AUTO-UPDATED, instead of shipping a new version every couple of years that is, more or less, completely decoupled from the previous version. This is what IE 11 currently does, so I would imagine they will continue doing so with Project Spartan.
We have actually been updating Internet Explorer for some years now. We don't touch machines that have opted out of updates, but for everybody else we've been moving them forward regularly. Spartan is neat because it's a separate app, built on a different architecture that will not only continue to allow us to update in an evergreen fashion, but it will allow us to do so at a much faster rate.
It has been standard practice for Microsoft for many years to ship the DLLs required for a feature in the OS as redistributables, features such as updates to OLE, new runtimes for Visual C++ or Visual Basic, new APIs, new images processing libraries and audio and video codes, and many other things. Software like Office would even ship with new UI components that could be reused.
Building a version of IE that did not require OS sandboxing features was also not an impossible task and would have maintained the backwards compatibility that Microsoft holds almost sacred better than a version of IE that was is still frozen in time, and is the last version that will ever be shipped for Windows XP.
This has broken the trust and relationship with web developers, even those that used IE as the gold standard and built their sites to match every spec and feature promulgated by Microsoft in the past. (VML, behaviors, filters for instance).
I work in an industry where compatibility with IE8 is expected, and spend the same amount of time that many others do maintaining a veneer of compatibility with that browser, that rendering engine, that HTML parser. This requires heavier libraries than I would prefer to use (such as jQuery) because it maintains an abstraction over the incompatible parts of the DOM implementation.
Another example of this is the incompatibility with SNI which has driven a requirement for unique IP addresses per SSL site and driven those than do not want to pay for such as limited resource (assuming IPv4 addresses) to share SSL certificates, use wildcard certificates that open issues of their own, or forgo the security provided by SSL entirely if they still require compatibility with Internet Explorer versions and OS versions that don't implement SNI natively.
This also applies to current more secure versions of NTLM which are and were supported by third-party browsers on the same OSs that Microsoft did not offer support, by using a non OS provided SSL library which implemented the Microsoft driven standard.
It's true that the IE team has done a better job of communicating with IE Blog and other channels, and has done a better job of getting out in front of upcoming standards, delivering impressive performance on complicated implementations (WebGL) and otherwise kicking some ass.
But they and Microsoft still have to rebuild the trust and support of the developers they lost not just as users, but the developers who have come to dread working with technologies they once loved due to the heartbreak that IE6, 7, and 8 inflicted upon us.
I'll end where I began, with a plea for an explanation for not shipping a newer version of Internet Explorer on Windows XP before the end of life.
And best of luck.
Edit: I include 6 and 7 in reference to current support requirements, not the advances they represented when first released.
Re: The birth of Microsoft's new web rendering engine
#174Earlier quoted context omitted.
Chrome and friends aren't webkit anymore, but only by way of forking. Otherwise Chrome, Chromium and Opera 15+ are the same engine. The family tree kind of looks like this: -- Internet Explorer -- Firefox -- Safari \ -- Chrome, Chromium, Opera 15+ -- Opera 12 (abandoned) I'm a little unclear on how differentiated Webkit and Blink are in practice, but sadly we have only 3.5 major engines competing at this point.
Let's not forget links and w3m.
Re: The birth of Microsoft's new web rendering engine
#175Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'd like to see some competition as well, but in my perspective, they're taking the wrong approach. This entire project seems to be about improving compatibility with older websites, by adding more algorithms and layers to the rendering process. I don't believe everyone is using Firefox and Chrome because they have better compatibility than IE. I think they should focus on cutting the fat, and making the lightest wei…
Have you used IE in the past few years? IE is (by far) already the fastest browser on my two Windows 10 machines right now. That was also the case when they were running Windows 8 and 8.1 in the past. The latest versions of IE make Chrome feel like Netscape Communicator 4, and they're noticeably faster than Firefox too. If it had a nice LastPass extension, Ghostery, Buffer, and a few others, I'd probably be using IE…
Re: The birth of Microsoft's new web rendering engine
#176Is there anything wrong with the ones that already exist, which developers already cater to? What are they accomplishing here, exactly?
Well, let's flip the question around -- why are there three major open-source rendering engines in the world right now already? Why did Google fork Blink from WebKit? The answer seems to be, major browser vendors have a hard time cooperating at the engine level. Apple and Google had different opinions over WebKit, which eventually led to it being forked. Microsoft has no real reason to think that it could partner wit…
Re: The birth of Microsoft's new web rendering engine
#177Earlier quoted context omitted.
We created http://remote.modern.ie so you can stream Internet Explorer to your Mac. Even to your iOS device :)
What about to my Mint pc?
Interesting, as their partner for Modern.IE, BrowserStack, uses a Javascript based remote desktop. (It may also support Flash on certain browsers, but I'm not sure about that part.)
Re: The birth of Microsoft's new web rendering engine
#178Re: The birth of Microsoft's new web rendering engine
#179YES! 1-2-3-4, I declare a browser war! Finally. This is the Microsoft I've been waiting for! No more rolling over and no defeatist talk of adopting WebKit or whatever. Microsoft is going to use its muscle and position to make a truly competitive browser. We need more competition, and we need the default browser in Windows to be just as good as Chrome and Firefox. Microsoft, I hope you pull every -ms- vendor flaggin',…
I'd like to see some competition as well, but in my perspective, they're taking the wrong approach. This entire project seems to be about improving compatibility with older websites, by adding more algorithms and layers to the rendering process. I don't believe everyone is using Firefox and Chrome because they have better compatibility than IE. I think they should focus on cutting the fat, and making the lightest wei…
Removal of old IE legacy cruft is slimming Spartan's disk and memory footprint when compared with IE. Advances in the Chakra engine are pushing performance ahead. We're rearchitecting our DOM, which is yielding perf and security wins too. We're planning an extension platform also, with top add-ons like ad block being a clear target.
There's a bit of a catch 22 with "get users" and "watch compatibility fix itself" as broken compatibility is often cited as a top reason for users to switch browsers. It's hard to grow users without investing in compatibility.
So what we're doing is defining our "blend" of investments. Right now we have a heavy amount of interop investments in our blend as we think that's important for users. Over time (months, not years) the major interop gaps will disappear and I expect we'll see a shift in that blend to increase investments in other areas.
(Jacob Rossi, Spartan platform engineering team)
Re: The birth of Microsoft's new web rendering engine
#180Earlier quoted context omitted.
Opera, Chrome and Chromium are based off the same engine which is a fork of WebKit. If anything competition has gone down the last couple of years with WebKit based browsers becoming the standard despite its bugs & non-standard behavior. It reminds me of IE6 in its heyday.
No web developer worth his salt writes code for any one browser. You write code to the standard and test in browsers. Anyone doing differently should be fired on the spot. I'm not aware of any professional web developer who does that.