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An Offer to Sony from 2600

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Re: An Offer to Sony from 2600

#171

Post by estebank »

junto wrote: post #77

I guess a movie about two brave maverick North Korean TV stars heading to Washington to assassinate Obama, the evil emperor of the United States could also be a 'funny' comedy movie to watch. Seriously though, while the plot of the film is both purile and offensive to the North Korean dictator personally, should NK be behind the attack on Sony (im still not convinced) then it is definitely an ulterly inappropriate re…

Death of a President and Vantage Point come to mind. There're many many films that talk about killing the president of the US of A, some using real presidents and in at least one case already mentioned, while that president was in office. You can find it tactless, and I this case painfully unfunny, but that should never stop anyone from doing anything. Specially bit a film. Otherwise there're large swaths of our public libraries that would have to be burned.

Re: An Offer to Sony from 2600

#172

Post by DonHopkins »

connie_lingus wrote: post #95

The CIA report threatens our legitimacy as a world power. no it does not...almost everyone in the world understand that under certain conditions, torture to get potentially life-saving information is just the way of things. let me put it this way...if your immediate family was going to be blown up in two hours, wouldn't you say go ahead and torture that guy who you KNOW has information on how to diffuse the bomb?

You certainly have already lost the argument when you have to make that kind of a ridiculous emotional implausible supposition, trying to whip everyone up into a patriotic frenzy, in your sociopathic attempt to justify torture.

There was NO ticking time bomb. And even if there was, torture STILL would not work, for all the same reasons, and it would just waste precious time.

You've just demonstrated that you're not thinking rationally, and that you're just reacting to and parroting emotional pro-torture propaganda.

That doesn't win your argument, it just shows what kind of a person you truly are: a war crime apologist, who panders to people's worst fears and emotions, to support ineffective torture, as a means to your actual ends: revenge.

Re: An Offer to Sony from 2600

#173

Post by aaronbrethorst »

maroonblazer wrote: post #162
aaronbrethorst wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The key distinction is that in this case it was a matter of simply threatening torture Torture would not have produced more useful results, and may have actually produced less useful results. Threatening it, on the other hand, seems to have worked. The issue with the CIA torture scandal is that you have a bunch of guys who may or may not know anything. These guys are interrogated, and, probably, disclose everything t…

Maybe, but consider: instead of someone like the person in the article, the perpetrator is a member of a radical fundamentalist organization who believes that death is better than life and is not so put off by the prospect of some discomfort, at least in theory. It's conceivable that once theory is put into practice he might rethink his position.

That's completely, verifiably wrong.

    The Senate report has a revealing passage saying that
    the statement of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed ("KSM")
    "during his first day in CIA custody included an
    accurate description of a Pakistani/British operative,
    which was dismissed as having been provided during the
    initial 'throwaway stage' of information collection
    when the CIA believed detainees provided false or
    worthless information". KSM was later water-boarded
    (simulated drowning) 183 times, leading him to make
    frequent confessions that later turned out to be false.
    Another section of the report says that "KSM fabrications
    led the CIA to capture and detain suspected terrorists
    who were later found to be innocent".
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/torture-it-didnt...

Re: An Offer to Sony from 2600

#174

Post by cloakandswagger »

uxp wrote: post #160
cloakandswagger wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you deserve to be downvoted for providing a concrete, real world example that supports your argument.

But his concrete argument (while being factually correct) is irrelevant. No one was tortured, but was threatened with torture In the case of Abu Zubaydah, in his first 2 months of capture he provided more information than at any other time. The "enhanced" torture techniques didn't start until about his 3rd month of detention. In both cases, the threat of torture, among other future conditions that don't fall under th…

Threats mean nothing if there is no possibility that they'll be followed up on. As unfortunate and dark as it is, we have to be willing to torture for the threat to be effective.

Re: An Offer to Sony from 2600

#175

Post by hrktb »

agnsaft wrote: post #11
Rapzid wrote: post #6

If Sony can't find a distributor they should start taking Visa on their site and offer direct downloads, watch the dollars start rolling in, and get their first exposure to a business model they should have been pioneering 10 years ago.

Who in their right mind would give their VISA to Sony at this point?

And then you think about these people: http://sonybank.net

Re: An Offer to Sony from 2600

#176

Post by happyscrappy »

DonHopkins wrote: post #169
happyscrappy wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Euroweenies can be as outraged as they like and it won't matter because they never do anything. Europe will be a vassal state for the forseeable future.

Although you've answered twice, you're still avoiding the question. He asked you if you prefer war over script kiddies, and said he's disgusted that you seem to. I agree. Do you or don't you prefer actual war (including torture, rape, cluster bombs, starvation, etc) over "cyber warfare" (including script kiddies, copyright violation, web site graffiti and defacement, leaked email and photos, cyber bullying, doxing, i…

That is a straw man question. Meanwhile drone strikes are run from europe and whining with no action is considered good form there.

Re: An Offer to Sony from 2600

#177

Post by [deleted] »

maroonblazer wrote: post #162
aaronbrethorst wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The key distinction is that in this case it was a matter of simply threatening torture Torture would not have produced more useful results, and may have actually produced less useful results. Threatening it, on the other hand, seems to have worked. The issue with the CIA torture scandal is that you have a bunch of guys who may or may not know anything. These guys are interrogated, and, probably, disclose everything t…

Maybe, but consider: instead of someone like the person in the article, the perpetrator is a member of a radical fundamentalist organization who believes that death is better than life and is not so put off by the prospect of some discomfort, at least in theory. It's conceivable that once theory is put into practice he might rethink his position.

[deleted]

Re: An Offer to Sony from 2600

#178

Post by DonHopkins »

connie_lingus wrote: post #138
rblatz wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The world doesn't work like the television show 24.

i don't watch tv so i don't know what you are talking about.

That's funny, because you sound exactly like somebody who watches Fox News religiously.

So if it wasn't TV, please explain to us where you ever got the idea that there was a "ticking time bomb" scenario, and how that justified the CIA's torture and war crimes that you're trying to justify by unwittingly parroting the exact same lies that Fox News is broadcasting?

Re: An Offer to Sony from 2600

#179

Post by unclebucknasty »

srj wrote: post #104
unclebucknasty wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just watching it will be an event That brings up a good point. Perhaps Sony should even consider using the controversy in its marketing, then later make claims about how much more successful the film was than projected, thanks to the added publicity (which will almost certainly be true). Not only would it show defiance, it would underscore the paradoxical effect of trying to stifle free speech in this manner. And,…

What has lead you to believe that free speech is any consideration in Sony's dealings? This is the company that has (and still does) push for SOPA and CISPA-like abilities to take down websites with the most minor effort! It's unclear why the release was canceled. Maybe Sony wants to just put this whole thing behind them. Maybe they want to curtail any further leaks that they feel may be worse. Perhaps the executives…

>What has lead you to believe that free speech is any consideration in Sony's dealings?

Call it artistic freedom if you'd prefer. It's all a form of free speech and I'm not sure that Sony has ever come out against artistic expression.

Regardless, I think it's pretty clear that the shoe is on the other foot now. That point, of course, is essentially the main premise of the article on which we are commenting, and it's what makes the situation so sweetly ironic to its author(s).

But, you know, it's all P.R. and all about messaging (from both sides). Sony doesn't have to really believe in free speech for everyone in order to make a stand on that premise. They are surely aware that standing on their right to make a profit probably wouldn't engender as much support or be as effective as standing for artistic freedom, free speech, etc.

And, of course, all of this discussion about what to call it is pedantic, because my bigger point was that they have an opportunity to turn this on its head and have it completely backfire on the attackers, thus providing strong disincentive for future attacks.

>It's unclear why the release was canceled.

I think it's pretty clear that, at least in part, they were tired of having their asses handed to them. In short, they were punked.

Re: An Offer to Sony from 2600

#180

Post by lotsofmangos »

maroonblazer wrote: post #123
wmeredith wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your premise is pure fantasy. There was never a ticking time bomb scenario. And torque is NOT an effective means of extracting information. Everyone from Napoleon to Hitler to our own Military generals have aid as much. Here's a good article on the subject: http://www.theguardian.com/science/the-lay-scientist/2010/no...

>And torque is NOT an effective means of extracting information. Then how do you explain this case in Germany where simply threatening torture resulted in the perpetrator divulging the location of his victim: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/10/world/kidnapping-has-germa...

They happened to have the perpetrator there, if they had caught the wrong guy and threatened torture, they could well have got a confession and a load of false information. Also, there are plenty of situations where you have the right guy and they still feed you bullshit, like in the example of John McCain.

The thing isn't that threatening torture occasionally works, it is that it generates false information just as readily. It is extremely unreliable and in the process it also turns you into something despicable. Nietzsche had it right when he said: Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

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