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US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

intelligence.senate.gov

171–180 of 579 posts

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

* I would never support the use of these techniques against soldiers of a legitimate state or other criminal actors. * The perpetrators of the 9-11 attacks to me represent a completely different sort of threat than has ever been encountered - which legitimized the use of torture (though to be honest, the sorts of techniques outlined in the report don't really sound like what I would classify as "torture"; i.e., the i…

What is different about the 9/11 attacks that legitimizes the use of torture, when you would not support it against soldiers or other criminals? Do keep in mind that 9/11 doesn't even register on the atrocity scale when compared to what's been done by "soldiers of a legitimate state." If you would endorse torture to prevent another 9/11, why wouldn't you also endorse torture to prevent, say, another Hiroshima?

You bring up Hiroshima as an example.

I think that in many ways this becomes the old Moral Absolutism versus Moral Relativism problem.

You can have a moral absolutist who says, "Harming another human is wrong, therefore we will not torture under any case." (A different absolutist might be more utilitarian in arguing for torture of one to save many, but you get the point- an absolutist has a position and a rigid interpretation of that position, and sticks with it)

You can have a moral relativist who says, "Harming another human is wrong. We cannot torture someone to collect information, but we cannot avoid collecting that information because if we avoid collecting that information it will lead to someone else harming more humans."

Two sides to the same moral problem. I tend to agree with the relativist view of the problem rather than the absolutist view; the relativist in this case is informed by the consequences of both action and inaction whereas the absolutist in this case only cares about the consequences of action. The solution? Absolutism will provide a solution because something is either right or wrong. So absolutism is easy, attractive. Relativism provides no clear solution, which is why many people prefer to reason in moral absolutist terms.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#172
post #137
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rightfully so. People should be upset. We let a sense of urgency take over our moral compass. Which was the completely wrong way to look at this conflict anyway: we had no need to be that urgent given that our resources were (and still are) effectively inexhaustible. We got bad intelligence, we made a lot of enemies, and we lost the moral high ground that the US had worked hard to rebuild after Vietnam. The failure h…

"we would have more friends in the region" This seems to be thrown around a lot. You hear things like, "if we didn't go into Iraq/Afghanistan, we would have more friends in the region," "if we didn't prop up Mubarak or the Saudis or someone else, we would have more friends in the region," "if we gave more support to the Palestinians, we would have more friends in the region." I think this is the wrong way to think ab…

The friends we've chosen in the region also don't help us. Neither Saudi Arabia nor Israel are particularly well-liked in the region (and that's putting it lightly), but both are seen as US puppets.

Honestly I don't think we really care much anymore what the Saudis think; the regime has fantastic wealth but very little real power beyond holding the purse strings for hyper conservative terror groups. I think eventually the hypocrisy and opulence of the regime will cause the terror groups to throw off their former masters and come after them -- and all credible reports say the Saudi army isn't much more than a facade propped up by a handful of US contractors. We probably wouldn't let them fall to terror groups, but we also aren't really comfortable propping up a regime that is actively funding a proxy war against us.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#173
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to clarify are you using the word "her" in this section: "America step back from her actions in future" To mean: "America step back from the actions of the US government in future" ?

Just to play devils advocate, so please don't take this personally... There are varying levels of culpability that we all share right. It's difficult to see that we are all part of the problem if we aren't engaged in trying to change it. Your statement suggests that the American government operate in a vacuum and certainly every day people aren't engaged it does seem more and more that they can do as they wish. I'm g…

You've mistaken my question as holding some kind of opinion.

Reading your reply I can see why. I'm sorry I didn't word it better.

ps: I'm not American.

pps: I believe that American's, like anyone living in a democracy, are ultimately responsible for the actions of their Government.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is different about the 9/11 attacks that legitimizes the use of torture, when you would not support it against soldiers or other criminals? They had demonstrated the practice of mass killings of innocent civilians and expressed the desire to continue to do so. > If you would endorse torture to prevent another 9/11, why wouldn't you also endorse torture to prevent, say, another Hiroshima? Well, setting aside th…

Mass killings of innocent civilians are commonly carried out by "soldiers of a legitimate state." OK, so nuclear attacks by soldiers justify it. How about conventional strategic bombing? Invasions? Exactly where and why do you draw the line, if you're not drawing it where you previously said?

I'll admit, you've got me.

I don't know where I would draw the line, but in the case of Qeada/ISIS, they are well across my personal fuzzy gray line.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of these things are clearly off the deep end. But some of them, especially threats, seem like pretty basic/standard interrogation... There are many techniques, but it seems like we have forgotten it is fundamentally manipulative and abusive. I mean, we are surprised to find that threats are used? What?

I wouldn't say that any of these techniques are "basic/standard", and I used to work in the field. You can get plenty of information out of someone without laying a finger on them. In my opinion the question is the extent to which it's OK to play with people's psychology through isolation and misinformation, while still giving them 3 hots and a cot. The important thing to note here is that you can still damage people…

> You can get plenty of information out of someone without laying a finger on them

Can you give examples? Do they work against hardened interogees? Do they involve threats of violence?

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#176
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been shown that torture is among the least effective way of extracting information from unwilling informants. http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/an_fbi_interrogator_on_the_...

I'm not talking about waterboarding or what have you. I guess I'm just puzzled that things like threats & slaps are being rolled in with waterboarding. Maybe threats & slaps are not the most effective method, sure- that doesn't really matter. It just seems like people are shocked to find fundamentally abusive/manipulative behavior going on at all. Virtually any form of extracting information from an unwilling informa…

Hanns Scharf would disagree.

"Scharff was opposed to physically abusing prisoners to obtain information. Learning on the job, Scharff instead relied upon the Luftwaffe's approved list of techniques, which mostly involved making the interrogator seem as if he is his prisoner's greatest advocate while in captivity."

And this guy was successful as well.

"Scharff's approach has been admiringly cited by top US interrogators, such as Ali Soufan"

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#177
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The list goes on. It sure does. > At DETENTION SITE COBALT, detainees were often held down, naked, on a tarp on the floor, with the tarp pulled up around them to form a makeshift tub, while cold or refrigerated water was poured on them. Others were hosed down repeatedly while they were shackled naked, in the standing sleep deprivation position. These same detainees were subsequently placed in rooms with temperatures…

That last one is special. Add "anal rape" to the list of the CIA's torture accolades. Certainly didn't hear about THAT on the news.

Oh, it happens even within the states, to legal citizens. http://www.loweringthebar.net/2013/11/do-not-clench-your-but...

Fuck the police.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't say that any of these techniques are "basic/standard", and I used to work in the field. You can get plenty of information out of someone without laying a finger on them. In my opinion the question is the extent to which it's OK to play with people's psychology through isolation and misinformation, while still giving them 3 hots and a cot. The important thing to note here is that you can still damage people…

"Then again, these guys did not get rolled up for signing too loud in church. They have valuable intel in their heads." Why does terrorism frighten people so much that they're willing to throw away basic principles like "innocent until proven guilty"? Honest question. I see comment after comment after comment in this thread that indicates the commenters are unbelievably frightened of terrorism, to the extent that the…

I'm just not seeing a lot of comments in this thread saying that the commenters sanction anything to prevent terrorism.

The condemnation of torture seems to be far more widespread here.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#179
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder when the UN will stand up and impose trade bans on the US for such deeds.

The US has veto power in the UN.

> The US has veto power in the UN.

Strictly speaking, the US has veto power in the UN Security Council, which usually has primary responsibility for binding actions on matters of international peace and security, including, inter alia, taking binding action in response to threats to the same such as by grave breaches of international law by a nation-state.

However, its worth noting that -- at US urging in the context of the Korean War -- the UN established a mechanism (under the "Uniting for Peace" resolution [0]) by which the General Assembly can step in when the Security Council is unable to act because of deadlock among the veto powers.

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly...

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is different about the 9/11 attacks that legitimizes the use of torture, when you would not support it against soldiers or other criminals? Do keep in mind that 9/11 doesn't even register on the atrocity scale when compared to what's been done by "soldiers of a legitimate state." If you would endorse torture to prevent another 9/11, why wouldn't you also endorse torture to prevent, say, another Hiroshima?

I would also like to turn the question around though: If torture could prevent the mass killing of innocent civilians, do you see any justification in it?

No. I don't think torture is ever justified, under any circumstances. No exceptions.
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