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Mark Zuckerberg Answers Q&A in Mandarin at Chinese University

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Re: Mark Zuckerberg Answers Q&A in Mandarin at Chinese University

#171

Gonna be a bit of a douche, but... Why do we go googoogaga over an English speaker learning a foreign language to a competent level, when this is something millions of people do regularly? Mark isn't the first person to learn a language in the middle of a busy job and life schedule. Doucheness not quite over - it's a big achievement, yeah, but Chinese isn't actually that hard, it's a bit of a myth perpetuated because…

You won't find a finer example of white privilege. No one cares if a Chinese CEO (or anyone for that matter) speaks English, no matter the difficulty and effort the learning entails. Contrast this indifference with the flattery of the converse in this thread, and it's quite illuminating of the world we live in.

This has nothing to do with white privilege. I am a rather white English-speaking Frenchman, I've lived for 4 years in Vancouver and people never complimented for being fluent or bilingual. This is just either people fawning in front of powerful people or most likely some form of anglo-centrism where speaking a foreign language is something exceptional (which it's not).

That being said, good on him for making the effort.

Re: Mark Zuckerberg Answers Q&A in Mandarin at Chinese University

#172

Gonna be a bit of a douche, but... Why do we go googoogaga over an English speaker learning a foreign language to a competent level, when this is something millions of people do regularly? Mark isn't the first person to learn a language in the middle of a busy job and life schedule. Doucheness not quite over - it's a big achievement, yeah, but Chinese isn't actually that hard, it's a bit of a myth perpetuated because…

Where is your data on Chinese not being "that" hard? According to US Military studies it's about 10 times as hard to learn as another Germanic language. In my experience, being fluent in two languages and learning Chinese, it's crazy difficult. Everybody has difficulty with different aspects of the language, for me pronunciation and tones are easy, but the ambiguity and "same soundedness" of the words really makes it difficult for me to remember anything. I know that if I put as much effort into learning German as I have Chinese, I would be pretty fluent by now. Instead I'm a still complete newb.

Re: Mark Zuckerberg Answers Q&A in Mandarin at Chinese University

#173
post #93
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except for accents. Picking up a language as a child is virtually the only way to really nail the accent.

For most people this is probably true, but I started learning Mandarin in college and now have a native-sounding accent, and I know others who have pulled it off too. I think the key was that in the first few months of studying Mandarin, I listened to recordings of short phrases and repeated them back over and over again until I sounded exactly like the recording. I spent hours in my university's language lab with he…

Some people can also pick up accents without knowing the languages: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybcvlxivscw

Re: Mark Zuckerberg Answers Q&A in Mandarin at Chinese University

#174

Gonna be a bit of a douche, but... Why do we go googoogaga over an English speaker learning a foreign language to a competent level, when this is something millions of people do regularly? Mark isn't the first person to learn a language in the middle of a busy job and life schedule. Doucheness not quite over - it's a big achievement, yeah, but Chinese isn't actually that hard, it's a bit of a myth perpetuated because…

Where is your data on Chinese not being "that" hard? According to US Military studies it's about 10 times as hard to learn as another Germanic language. In my experience, being fluent in two languages and learning Chinese, it's crazy difficult. Everybody has difficulty with different aspects of the language, for me pronunciation and tones are easy, but the ambiguity and "same soundedness" of the words really makes it…

It's my personal experience. I don't really know how you quantify a language as being 10x as hard? Do you need to be 10x more clever or work 10x more? The American foreign diplomat service routinely trains its staff to relative fluency in a couple of years.

As with my other comments, taking Chinese as a whole it is difficult, but breaking it down into components, some parts are crazy hard and parts are quite easy. I think once you get past the hump of becoming used to tones and some of the initial grammar weirdness (for English speakers) then there aren't many grammar complexities, vocabulary is very repetitive and even poor pronunciation isn't as big a deal as you think - witness Mark making lots of tone errors but being understood quite well.

Re: Mark Zuckerberg Answers Q&A in Mandarin at Chinese University

#175
post #125

A review of his Mandarin based on a close listen of the first 5 minutes of the video and listening to the rest in the background while I type this (let me know if it changes later): tl;dr - Definitely ILR 1+, probably an ILR 2. Pronunciation needs a ton of work, but that's not the only aspect that is measured when analyzing speech. The foreign policy article (linked in another comment) is overly critical, imho. Detai…

"His style of answering questions was very American -- very direct." I'm interested in more expanded thoughts on the above. In what way are non-Americans less "direct" than Americans? Is about politeness/rudeness, or something else? Wouldn't that make miscommunication more probable?

Great question, and it's a tough one to answer.

First, this is not an issue that's purely "American vs non-American". It's a US compared to Chinese. As a contrast, Russians tend to be very direct even though they are very much non-American.

In this specific case, it has to do with his speech acts and his audience. This is a _huge_ topic, so I will only scratch the surface.

A simple and clear example would be how he answered the "Why are you studying Chinese?" question.

Mark answers with a touching story about his wife and his wife's grandmother. To an American audience, this is very personable, and it is very plausible.

My brief take on a "Chinese-style CEO" answer would be something like this: "Well, Chinese is important for everyone to know. It has a long and storied history, and it is undoubtedly the most important language for people to know today and moving ahead into the future. As the CEO of a large American company, I think that it is only prudent that I learn the language of one of our most important audiences." I don't think a Chinese-style answer would even bring Priscilla's heritage into the response for a number of reasons (e.g., they already know, it's personal not business, etc.).

For reference, my hypothetical response is a kind of DST (search for "DST LOL") that is common in some cultures, even if it is blatant DST.

Note that speech acts are important in all cultures, and that my Chinese example could easily be used in an American context. The important thing to ask is "What am I trying to say in the big picture?". Engineers tend to go for the direct answer, but it's not always the most appealing for a given context.

Re: Mark Zuckerberg Answers Q&A in Mandarin at Chinese University

#176
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your sentiment that it's impressive of him to have learnt Mandarin while running a company like Facebook, at an age well beyond the optimal 'malleable' pre-teen/teen period. It's also brave of him to put himself in a position like this, where he will be judged by millions of people like me. But, his pronunciation is not good and the flow of his speech is a bit too slow and stuttery in order for this to b…

I tend to agree with this assessment of his Mandarin more than the gp's. As a native speaker, I must disagree when gp says: "He does decently enough. There are errors, but it's not hard to understand what he is saying -- especially for a sympathetic native listener." Large parts were incomprehensible to me (in part due to the audio quality), and the host's repetition of what Zuckerberg said--he does this many times--…

That's not sycophantic praise. That's a common refrain that many ABCs would concede whenever hearing any non-Chinese-ethnicity speaking Mandarin (or related language) much better than they would. The fact is that many ABCs (not all) cannot speak anywhere near this level, hence the comments. I say the same when I heard a non-Korean speaking Korean better than me.

Re: Mark Zuckerberg Answers Q&A in Mandarin at Chinese University

#177
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Per hour, adults are more efficient at learning languages. But kids forced into another language typically get more hours of exposure than adults attempting to force themselves to learn a language.

Do you have anything cite for this claim? All the research I'm aware of strongly suggests (1) It's extremely hard for adults to learn new languages - usually requiring many more hours compared to kids learning second language (2) Brain circuitry to hear, distinguish and pronounce new sounds effectively gets shutdown in older age.

I too often read about research that suggests children are better at learning languages than adults, which may or not be true, but I am rarely convinced by these reports. Finding a correlation between the age a person started learning a language and their fluency, the reports then conclude that children are superior learners, without considering other factors like that bi-lingual children are exposed to their languages constantly and must learn them to communicate with others, while adult learners find 2 hours of study onerous and suffer few if any consequences from not learning.

Other studies are more scientifically rigorous, testing the aptitude of various language learning abilities with quizzes and games, but I think we can infer very little about the efficiency of long term studying from these narrow tests.

Just anecdotally, I live in Japan, and most foreigners I know who come as adults and work in a Japanese environment are conversational in a year, fluent in 3 or 4.

Re: Mark Zuckerberg Answers Q&A in Mandarin at Chinese University

#178
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where's "here"? I lived in Shanghai 3 years I would have put that number pretty close to 0%.

>Where's "here"? I lived in Shanghai 3 years I would have put that number pretty close to 0%. Shenzhen. You're right, 10% is being generous but a lot of long time expats pick up Mandarin not at work but through the "long haired dictionary" method. I don't know any successful business people that have been here for more than five years that feel it's essential for business. Foreign companies fail here all the time due…

In Taipei the percentage of foreigners who speak good Chinese is quite high.

Maybe just because I hang out with professionals rather than English teachers.

But I agree that general fluency is a whole lot more common than business fluency.

Re: Mark Zuckerberg Answers Q&A in Mandarin at Chinese University

#179
post #125

A review of his Mandarin based on a close listen of the first 5 minutes of the video and listening to the rest in the background while I type this (let me know if it changes later): tl;dr - Definitely ILR 1+, probably an ILR 2. Pronunciation needs a ton of work, but that's not the only aspect that is measured when analyzing speech. The foreign policy article (linked in another comment) is overly critical, imho. Detai…

[deleted]

Re: Mark Zuckerberg Answers Q&A in Mandarin at Chinese University

#180
post #125

A review of his Mandarin based on a close listen of the first 5 minutes of the video and listening to the rest in the background while I type this (let me know if it changes later): tl;dr - Definitely ILR 1+, probably an ILR 2. Pronunciation needs a ton of work, but that's not the only aspect that is measured when analyzing speech. The foreign policy article (linked in another comment) is overly critical, imho. Detai…

"I would say that it is all comprehensible to a sympathetic native listener."

Not really. As a native speaker of mandarin, I have difficulty in catching specific words from time to time, although the rough meaning could be understood.

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