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No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

polygon.com

171–180 of 375 posts

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#171
post #72
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The article notes this. Women shouldn't be expected to distance themselves from a very real threat of physical violence, which men simply don't face to anything close to the same degree. Mean deal with threats of physical violence all the time. Including actual attacks, which is far more common between men. They just don't deal with rape threats/attacks.

What the hell kind of environment are you in where you get threats of physical violence "all the time"? I've NEVER been threatened with any sort of violence in a professional or educational context. I've never witnessed threats of violence in my work environment. I might be just lucky to have always worked at awesome places (I am), but even when executives or other engineers were angry, I never saw any kind of threat…

>What the hell kind of environment are you in where you get threats of physical violence "all the time"?

The internet? Try writing a post / column on any political topic (even game or music criticism) and see what happens.

(TFA too, mentioned comments/threats from end users and such mostly over the internet -- not threats made to her in her workplace).

Still even at the physical workplace, men are more prone to resort to a "fist fight" kind of situation and physical violence between them. Including the rare, but orders of magnitude more often than with women, example of men going postal and shooting up the place.

Then there's being bullied at school and the neighborhood. And the usual threats from enraged drivers, drunkards at some bar, etc -- which also end up in violence sometimes.

And in Europe at least, you have to also count the all too common violence between men at soccer matches and other popular sports.

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#172
post #137
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I disagree. I have no problem my coworkers saying dick/sex/insulting/racist/etc jokes, whether they are male or female. If I worked at a company that claimed to have a "relaxed" office culture (i.e. most startups, not corporations), I would strongly voice my opinion that such censorship is inappropriate. The recent case of an Attlasian developer making a joke about his girlfriend at a conference comes to…

I think that in a lot of companies, this would be a terrible approach to take. By not standing up against such things, you could easily destroy the cohesion in a company. Maybe if you have a very homogenous company then noone will be there to take offence (that doesn't make it right), but the fact is that most companies are becoming more diverse and it is in their interests to support all members of the company to re…

I totally agree with all that you said, the thing is that I don't think that racist jokes mean that someone is a racist, and joking about one's girlfriend doesn't make a man sexist. I don't think those make for a toxic culture, only for a relaxed culture. But then again, I'm from Europe - I understand that Americans are quite a bit more puritanical about certain things (e.g. sex, cursing and race), and maybe less about others (violence and gore).

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#173
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the area of competitive sports, it is pretty common to receive death threats for athletes who do not perform well. I'm not saying it's right. It's not. I'm saying that the reader needs to tease apart the two.

>>In the area of competitive sports, it is pretty common to receive death threats for athletes who do not perform well. You are making this comparison because you haven't fully thought things through. In your mind, death is worse than rape, therefore receiving death threats is worse than receiving rape threats. But it's not so simple. Rape threats are significantly worse than death threats, for a similar reason that…

This is almost the most fantastic thing I've ever read.

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#174

I'm a male in the software industry, and I never really know what to make of these sorts of articles. It's terrible that someone should have to go through this. The anonymity of the internet is a great and terrible thing -- some people really get off on being horrible to people, and unfortunately when that person is a male, and they know they're talking to a woman, the low-hanging fruit is base sexism. But what is su…

This is a good read and the ideas in its background apply to a number of issues, one of which being the perceived helplessness you have mentioned.

http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/WarZoneChaptIIIE.htm...

For convenience's sake,

> I want to see you use those legendary bodies and that legendary strength and that legendary courage and the tenderness that you say you have in behalf of women; and that means against the rapists, against the pimps, and against the pornographers. It means something more than a personal renunciation. It means a systematic, political, active, public attack. And there has been very little of that.

But do RTFA :)

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#175
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is correct. Abusers, whether male or female, will find their target.

That's not quite true. Women are much more likely to receive threats because they are more vulnerable. Just like bullies pick on those they perceive to be weak, abusers target those they perceive to be easy targets.

Stats or GTFO.

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#176
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the best thing to do as far as internal harassment goes is to basically have a no tolerance policy from the higher-ups. Not so much a "you'll get fired" thing but having everyone step up and say "Hey, that's not cool" when someone makes a sexist joke. At my job, we had a guy for awhile who would post funny pictures in chat. Every once in awhile, he'd post something NSFW (not necessarily nudity) and all the gu…

Personally, I disagree. I have no problem my coworkers saying dick/sex/insulting/racist/etc jokes, whether they are male or female. If I worked at a company that claimed to have a "relaxed" office culture (i.e. most startups, not corporations), I would strongly voice my opinion that such censorship is inappropriate. The recent case of an Attlasian developer making a joke about his girlfriend at a conference comes to…

A "relaxed" office culture means that "dick/sex/insulting/racist/etc jokes" are acceptable? This might be the most amazingly asinine comment I have ever encountered on HN.

The type of "jokes" you refer to are usually not only not funny to the people who have to listen to them, they can create huge liabilities for the companies dumb enough to employ the out-of-touch fool who thinks he's the office's Dave Attell.

"But we're a startup with a relaxed office culture and an opt out from toxic emails policy, not a big corporation!" isn't an effective defense to a racial discrimination or sexual harassment lawsuit.

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#177

I'm a male in the software industry, and I never really know what to make of these sorts of articles. It's terrible that someone should have to go through this. The anonymity of the internet is a great and terrible thing -- some people really get off on being horrible to people, and unfortunately when that person is a male, and they know they're talking to a woman, the low-hanging fruit is base sexism. But what is su…

I think you need to stop reading things like this as "demonizing half of humanity." You being offended by an article like this is actually part of the problem, it results in silencing articles like this because some men don't like them, or don't feel like it applies to them.

Personally, as a male who isn't nearly as terrible as many of the men in this article, I think these articles are important. It is worth reading to raise your own awareness of the problems women face in our industry, and it is also worth reading to heighten awareness of your own actions, especially subtle things you might do and not be aware of. We should all be learning and try to better ourselves.

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#178
post #69
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She's not threatened because she's a writer, she's threatened because some people in the community are abusive and law enforcement hasn't stepped up and done its job.

She's a target of the threats because she's a public writer. It's not good and obviously it's not her fault, but sometimes it feels like a woman-in-tech's workday must go something like this according to the articles I see: 7am: coffee 8am: get to work 9am: rape threat from coworker #1 10am: standup meeting 11am: death threat from coworker #2

That's not what she said. She described a number of situations. None of them involved coworkers at all. Where are you getting this from?

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#179
post #118

Wow, I'm really glad I read this. I'm making a video game myself right now, and this such a relevant issue that I never even thought about. It never occurred to me that women in the gaming industry were mistreated, but it kind of makes sense-- video games often cater to young males, and often the easiest way to cater to those young males is by over-sexualizing women. I'm not going to say that that strategy doesn't wo…

> I think the over-sexualization of women in games and in other places often makes men think with their penises instead of their brains. Why do you think so? Personally, I think it's the other way around - the cause is that people (not just men) respond better to "shallow" things - i.e. pretty things/landscapes/photos/people, which is why marketers/companies create things that are pretty. If your target audience is m…

I would argue against calling it "shallow" but maybe more base/instinctual/primal perhaps? I would agree with tomp that it's probably because this is what works on the target audience. This creates a terrible cycle where the inherent hostility towards women in the marketing of video games means less women will be interested in playing which means the target audience doesn't change and the cycle repeats.

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#180
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the area of competitive sports, it is pretty common to receive death threats for athletes who do not perform well. I'm not saying it's right. It's not. I'm saying that the reader needs to tease apart the two.

>>In the area of competitive sports, it is pretty common to receive death threats for athletes who do not perform well. You are making this comparison because you haven't fully thought things through. In your mind, death is worse than rape, therefore receiving death threats is worse than receiving rape threats. But it's not so simple. Rape threats are significantly worse than death threats, for a similar reason that…

Funny, for most things that you wrote, one could say the exact opposite, with equivalent validity.

> You are making this comparison because you haven't fully thought things through. In your mind, death is worse than rape, but it doesn't automatically follow that receiving death threats is worse than receiving rape threats. But it's not so simple.

> Death threats are significantly worse than rape threats, for a similar reason that killing children is worse than killing adults (a child has a longer life and more choices to make than an adult, so killing a child is more choice-reducing than killing an adult - just as killing is more choice-reducing than raping). Men are a vulnerable group in society -- they are physically stronger than women on average and therefore work more dangerous jobs, and commit more suicides and die sooner on top of that. If both rape threats and death threats are an attempt at exerting power (with no intention of actually carrying through with the threat), then a death threat is a lot worse because it exploits a vulnerable group in the most mentally damaging way possible.

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