Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ?

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#171

Post by apotheon » Sun, Sep 06, 2009, 7:13 PM UTC

ahoyhere wrote: post #141

apotheon wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you didn't ban contraception, I'm sure birth rates would rise -- because people who wanted to get off and couldn't get fellatio might still not use contraception all the time. > We're talking about "private acts between consenting adults." Birth control is another kettle of fish entirely. WTF?

We're not actually talking about sex, remember. We're talking about unpaid internships. The OP was arguing that people are hypocrits, if they say "two consenting adults can do whatever they want" (behind closed doors) for sex, and then turns around and wants worker protection laws. Nobody in this comment thread is actually talking about sex. It's all about the metaphorical comparison, which IMO, breaks down pretty qu…

I'm aware of the metaphor. What I find ridiculous is that you're part of the attempt to argue that sex between consenting adults behind closed doors has no larger socio-economic effect, and when someone points out a larger socio-economic effect you try to pretend it's not relevant.

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#172

Post by apotheon » Sun, Sep 06, 2009, 7:20 PM UTC

ahoyhere wrote: post #143

yummyfajitas wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sex is a market. Money is only involved covertly (many women seek wealthy husbands), but it is still a market. Some market pressures: If some women have sex on the 1'st date, it will be hard for women who want to hold out until marriage to compete. Similarly, if Tina and Joan and Kellie engage in fellatio, Jennie might have trouble keeping a boyfriend if she does not. There is your "race to the bottom". Furthermore,…

You are trying to reach too far with this overly facile comparison. Let me show you how: 1. Sexual competition is not nearly as simple as job competition, for several reasons. 2. Many people have multiple sex partners, but a single job is staffed by a single person. 3. Sex isn't required to eat or keep a roof over your head. 4. Sex isn't taxed. 5. Sex doesn't go on your resume. 6. Sex is between two people (or so), n…

> Sexual competition is not nearly as simple as job competition, for several reasons.

I think you have an oversimplified view of the employment market.

> Many people have multiple sex partners, but a single job is staffed by a single person.

Employers often have many, many employees -- sometimes more employees at one time than anyone has sex partners in a decade.

> Sex isn't required to eat or keep a roof over your head.

. . . and working at IBM probably won't give you herpes.

> Sex isn't taxed.

Thank goodness.

> Sex doesn't go on your resume.

Not your professional employment resume, anyway -- unless you have sex professionally (as in the case of porn stars or Las Vegas prostitutes).

> Sex is between two people (or so), not a person and a corporate entity.

. . . and one doesn't normally fill out an application to get hired by one's spouse. So what?

> People don't involve lawyers or accountants before having sex.

. . . except sometimes. Have you heard of "white weddings" and "prenuptial agreements"?

> Trading sex for money is, in almost all parts of the US, illegal.

The porn industry is huge in the US. There's definitely some sex going on, there.

> Individual's choices leading to STDs or pregnancy don't compare, on a magnitude level, with governmental regulation changes that affect employment because the majority of Americans who have health insurance are only covered thru their employers

On the other hand, governmental regulation changes meant to address STDs do at least match that "magnitude".

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#173

Post by apotheon » Sun, Sep 06, 2009, 7:26 PM UTC

akeefer wrote: post #136

apotheon wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can argue about the efficacy of minimum wage laws, but it seems like real empirical studies (instead of just theoretical arguments) have been pretty inconclusive. Absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence. > And overall, the point is that you can't just let people create a massive loophole in that law by just deciding not to pay people at all. I, for one, don't have any problem with people find…

"A subtle form of class discrimination" is a far cry from "class warfare." I'm saying that, ethically speaking, unpaid internships help to further close off certain careers to people who are traditionally disadvantaged by giving opportunities to get ahead to people who are already traditionally more advantaged. If you disagree with that logic, that's fine: just explain how I'm wrong instead of just dismissing it.

I disagree with the idea that the possibility that one set of people might be more "advantaged" than another is good justification for ensuring nobody gets a leg up.

. . . and claiming otherwise, specifically when those sets of people are identified by social or economic class, is pretty much "code smell" for "class warfare".

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#174

Post by apotheon » Sun, Sep 06, 2009, 7:34 PM UTC

ismarc wrote: post #156

cwan wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not having much knowledge of the fashion industry, I can't say if this seems probable or not. But presuming you've done this for a week or two already why would you as an intern continue to stay at what seems to be a horrible position? Further, surely you would also recognize that this isn't indicative of the fashion industry?

I actually have no idea if this is even feasible in the fashion industry, I was just using a similar (fictitious) internship as what was described in the blog as an example. And the key is that an internship should be indicative of the business. Either way, the intern would have lost that week or two (even if they recognize it was a bunk internship), and the position would be open again if the business wanted to cont…

I'm not sure I see how your example is similar to Mark Cuban's example. For instance, conducting surveys (one of the tasks Cuban was talking about having interns accomplish) is part of a wide range of professional fields -- including experimental psychology (according to my girlfriend with the psychology degree), political analysis (according to major news networks), and usability testing.

> Either way, the intern would have lost that week or two (even if they recognize it was a bunk internship)

. . . and what else would they have done during that time?

Sometimes, one must try two or three things to find one that's worthwhile. Should I then be able to bring suit against a software developer whose software wasted a week of my time before I decided it wasn't doing me any good, before I moved on to something better?

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#175

Post by apotheon » Sun, Sep 06, 2009, 7:40 PM UTC

rapind wrote: post #159

cwan wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you assuming that the company would create a paid position if they couldn't have an unpaid internship position? I look at it on a pricing continuum. On the extremes, would you pay nothing to get work done that you considered to be important for your business? I mean I employ a number of people and I'm pretty sure I don't pay in the lowest quartile or even half of comparable skilled positions. It's almost the same…

I think our difference of opinion really boils down to our views of companies at large. Not every company is ethically responsible and many companies don't put enough thought into the hiring process at all. Once some kind of work becomes free, companies will do less and less diligence hiring for these position, simply because the value of the work becomes trivialized. This ends up hurting the workers and the company…

> Not every company is ethically responsible

What annoys me most about many of the opinions expressed in this discussion is that people think it's okay to punish the honest employers, and the people those honest employers would like to employ, for the actions of the dishonest employers.

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#176

Post by apotheon » Sun, Sep 06, 2009, 7:42 PM UTC

rapind wrote: post #109

cwan wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"worker safety" - Huh? Where is the safety of the worker here being jeopardized? It's not perfectly reasonable to the person being denied the choice. Clearly for the employer, the task(s) aren't of sufficient value to pay for the work otherwise, if they couldn't get unpaid workers, they would just pay for it. Instead, banning the practice makes society tangibly worse off as the work on the margins isn't being perform…

In some situations sure, I can agree with that. But to say it makes society tangibly worse I strongly disagree with because it assumes that all or at least most unpaid interships will benefit the internee. I don't think that's the case.

Not necessarily. It can also make society worse off overall in part because certain types of work just don't get done.

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#177

Post by apotheon » Sun, Sep 06, 2009, 7:44 PM UTC

rapind wrote: post #134

cwan wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why would an unpaid internee stay at their position if they didn't see any value to themselves? There generally is at least some value even if it's a line item on a resume (that can have significant cumulative value)

Seriously? Have you never worked somewhere because you hoped it would pay off huge in the end, even though you had other and higher paying options? Just because a job is attractive, doesn't mean it's going to further your career or somehow increase your value. And if you can't pay the bills while you're pursuing it, who ends up paying? Not the company who got your hours for free.

> Have you never worked somewhere because you hoped it would pay off huge in the end, even though you had other and higher paying options?

That's called a "gamble". The potential for loss is inherent in that type of decision. Does the potential failure mean the potential win should be prohibited?

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#178

Post by apotheon » Sun, Sep 06, 2009, 7:46 PM UTC

tnovelli wrote: post #117

apotheon wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What were they promised?

Ahh, good question! 3 college credits for ~250 hours. That's the incentive. One did it just for the experience, and regretted it.

Did they get what they were promised?

If so . . . where's the problem? Is it that people just assumed they'd get more than they were promised?

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#179

Post by apotheon » Sun, Sep 06, 2009, 7:49 PM UTC

codexon wrote: post #139

apotheon wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could speculate about that all day. Maybe it has the potential to become beneficial. Maybe it has secondary effects that would be beneficial to his sports franchise, but he can't justify the expense to shareholders. Maybe he would like to provide something for the fans because he's a fan himself. What's it to you why he wants to do it?

If it even has the potential to turn a profit, then he should foot the cost of the risk, not the interns. To put it in terms of the startup culture of hacker news: This is like asking entrepreneurs to work on your startup for free because there is a huge chance that the startup will be unprofitable. However in the chance that it does become profitable, then you will not be paid in any way, and the only thing you will…

> If it even has the potential to turn a profit, then he should foot the cost of the risk, not the interns.

Do you think he's not paying a bunch of money to make a project like this happen -- even if he doesn't have to pay all of his workers initially? If the difference between "intern" and "minimum wage" is the difference between the project happening and the project not happening, I still don't see how it's so terrible to let him try when the would-be interns think it's worth their time.

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#180

Post by barry-cotter » Sun, Sep 06, 2009, 9:55 PM UTC

cperciva wrote: post #99

apotheon wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One need not be licensed to be honest.

True, and one doesn't need a driver's license to know how to drive -- but a system of licensing is the most efficient way of verifying qualifications.

Why should we prefer licencing to certification, if desired with protected titles so that the difference between e.g. a Software Engineer (certified) and a programmer is abundantly obvious to anyone to anyone who does the research? Likewise lawyer (passed Bar exam) and an employee of a legal services company which does the kind of routine legal services that are well within the capabilities of the average paralegal but whicg they'd be prosecuted for offering withoug the imprimatur of a J.D. now.