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How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

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Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#171

Post by snorkel »

cparedes wrote: post #167

IMO, Amazon gets 'DevOps' right. It's mostly just called 'ownership' over in Amazon. (source: I used to work in Amazon as a systems engineer) You still have specializations - SDE's, systems engineers, DBA's, etc. However, if you write code and it ends up in production, you are responsible for the proper function of that code in production. As a friend of mine put it in terms of developers who don't want to be on-call…

I've worked among devs who don't want to own their code in production, they'd rather just code and then throw new code over the wall for the sys admins to deploy.

The anti-DevOps developers don't understand how databases work so they want an ORM to make it easy for them, and they don't know how to configure a web server so they want PaaS solutions to let them do 1-click deploys, and system command prompts are scary to them. Frankly such developers just plain suck. They don't like DevOps because they don't have the skills to be DevOps.

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#172

Post by nimblegorilla »

nickstinemates wrote: post #148
keypusher wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try convincing the ops at a large bank, insurance company or government that they can run their infrastructure in the public cloud, and watch as you get laughed out of the building.

I think it depends on your definition of infrastructure. Let me illustrate.. Core banking, batch processing, highly sensitive data stores? Probably not great candidates for public cloud consumption. Web properties and services which don't rely on said functionality? Absolutely great candidates. And the reality is, whether the IT guys like it or not, developers inside of these orgs are consuming cloud because getting…

Banks are leery of the cloud for anything they do because even a basic web site can have sensitive (hackable) links to logins for account data. Healthcare companies have the same concerns around private health data.

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#173

Post by copergi »

area51org wrote: post #107
copergi wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is there's as many ideas of what "devops" means as there are people saying "devops". The concept of devops as you just described it makes absolutely no sense to me for example. Operations has always been about automation. CFengine has been around for a long time. So to me, your version of devops just seems like a fad buzzword applied to the same old same old.

Better automation than cfengine, with any luck. But in most companies, Operations does not mean automation; that's the very reason the DevOps movement started.

Usually worse, it seems most people use chef or puppet. I understand what you are saying, but I am saying I believe otherwise. Operations has always relied heavily on automation. We managed several thousand unix machines with 3 or 4 people back in the 90s and it was totally normal. Devops started for the same reason cloud started: to put a new buzzword on what people have done forever, so that it can be sold as a new silver bullet.

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#174

Post by rmrfrmrf »

While I get the need for page views, I really wish problematic aspects of any tech movement could be discussed in a way that actually improves things rather than tears them down.

You hate xyz? OK, but apparently xyz has enough merit to get the attention of quite a few people, so let's identify the problem areas and make xyz better rather than resorting to hyperbole and melodrama.

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#175

Post by clone1018 »

agersant wrote: post #165
erkkie wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're a developer and want to stay relevant I suggest you read up. With distributed systems becoming the norm rather than the exception, developers will need to understand how and where their code runs in production (and how it gets there) to be able to debug issues or write better behaving code.

This may be a simple oversight and I hope I don't sound too pedantic but you may need to broaden your definition of developer a bit. Developers who work on OS, games, embarked systems or professional applications (think CAD) are not very likely to need these anytime soon. More knowledge is always good so I'll check some out anyway!

Vagrant can help developers who make OS and Games :). It can be used for simple testing on another OSes and environments.

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#176

Post by taiki »

michaelochurch wrote: post #83
NickPollard wrote: post #18

DevOps isn't amount making Developers be Ops guys. It's about the fact that automation eats everything, and a significant part of 'ops' is now coding. A DevOps person isn't someone who develops, and who does Ops. It's someone who does only Ops, but through Development. It's not about start ups vs Enterprise, it's about 1 person writing programs or 5 people doing things by hand.

The OP has a point, but his choice of DevOps as the bugbear is clumsy. Maybe the bastardization of it by the business is what he's mad about. "Full stack" is, perhaps, a better target. It's a completely meaningless, useless phrase. The problem is that employers demand specialists, especially for senior positions. At the same time, once they've acquired an employee, they refuse to respect specialties from that point o…

"Full stack" in the entire 6 years I've been developing has meant front and backend. Not, "I can spawn VM instances and code."

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#177

Post by nickstinemates »

nimblegorilla wrote: post #172
nickstinemates wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it depends on your definition of infrastructure. Let me illustrate.. Core banking, batch processing, highly sensitive data stores? Probably not great candidates for public cloud consumption. Web properties and services which don't rely on said functionality? Absolutely great candidates. And the reality is, whether the IT guys like it or not, developers inside of these orgs are consuming cloud because getting…

Banks are leery of the cloud for anything they do because even a basic web site can have sensitive (hackable) links to logins for account data. Healthcare companies have the same concerns around private health data.

I fully understand that, having worked in that world for the better part of the last decade.

The reality is, adoption of cloud in the enterprise is growing, not shrinking.

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#178

Post by mikebabineau »

NickPollard wrote: post #18

DevOps isn't amount making Developers be Ops guys. It's about the fact that automation eats everything, and a significant part of 'ops' is now coding. A DevOps person isn't someone who develops, and who does Ops. It's someone who does only Ops, but through Development. It's not about start ups vs Enterprise, it's about 1 person writing programs or 5 people doing things by hand.

Strongly disagree. DevOps is not the simple automation of operational infrastructure. That has been done for decades.

DevOps is about developer empowerment. It's about creating the systems and tools that give developers more control over the operation of their applications. It's about removing Ops as a technical barrier between new code and live code.

At least, (as someone whom most would label as "DevOps") that's what it means to me.

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#179

Post by dvanduzer »

dllthomas wrote: post #170
vinceguidry wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this case, a 'run-time failure' would be completely unacceptable, as the 'run-time' environment is your $X000 hardware manufacturing run. Hardware development isn't in the same league as software. It's not even the same sport. Like comparing football to rugby. Both played on a gridiron, but entirely differently.

First, there exist software environments where errors cost significantly more than a hardware run. Obviously, those environments contain hardware as well, but "cost of a runtime error" is clearly not the only important thing here. Second, my only point was that the example given was a piss poor example of the difference between hardware and software. Obviously a bad example doesn't disprove the claim it's supposed to…

Everyone's piling on you because that wasn't the point of the example. Automation grants humans extraordinary powers, as long as humans aren't simply steps within the automatic system.

There's been an awkward growing phase of the technology industry that has led to technicians that don't have any real understanding of the systems they maintain. Compare and contrast Robert DeNiro's character in Brazil with the repairmen he has to clean up after. We could be training those poor duct maintenance guys better.

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#180

Post by dvanduzer »

ErrantX wrote: post #168
zenbowman wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I was never aware of a sysadmin who couldn't code. Generally, a sysadmin has slightly different skills from a developer - they might code in a highly imperative style and always keeping the actual machine/system being targeted in mind, but I've never known a half-decent sysadmin who cannot write code.

Agreed. In my experience a senior sysadmin can work as a above-passable developer. But a senior developer can rarely function as a sysadmin. As to DBA; I can't help but feeling that the OP hasn't worked with "real" DBA's. That's a whole different ballpark and I've yet to meet a sysadmin or developer who can make even a passable DBA. I've always thought the hierarchy goes: DBA -> Ops -> Developers. With the last two r…

...you've never met a sysadmin that took an algebra class in college?
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