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Inclusiveness at Mozilla

brendaneich.com

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Re: Inclusiveness at Mozilla

#171

Post by MrZongle2 »

jedanbik wrote: post #166
MrZongle2 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, he did have to. Eich holds an opinion that, while apparently shared with the majority of Californian voters (as per Prop 8 results), is deeply unpopular with segments of the technical population. These are some of the folks who will help promote and test Mozilla's future releases. They are part of Mozilla's customer base. He had to apologize, because these days holding a politically incorrect opinion i…

Why is this unfortunate? I don't understand your perspective.

It is unfortunate because even though Mozilla has nothing specifically to do with LGBT issues and Eich has not publicly opined on the subject in the capacity of a Mozilla employee, he must now apologize for having an opinion.

Let me repeat that: Eich is apologizing for his opinion.

Not his actions as Mozilla CEO or even as an employee.

The response from some quarters to punish his deviation from what some parties have declared "acceptable" is breathtaking. It has all the makings of Stalinesque purge with a Web 2.0 twist. Given the subject itself and how so recently it was considered "abnormal" and "unacceptable", I find the whole episode tragically ironic.

I have no problem with gay marriage. But I am revulsed by the mob screaming for blood due to Eich's thoughtcrime on this matter.

Re: Inclusiveness at Mozilla

#172

Post by scott_karana »

azinman2 wrote: post #111
MrZongle2 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would we have the same controversy if Brendan voted Tea Party (but only privately)? If he were against abortion? If he didn't believe NASA needed a bigger budget (or that it did, if you lean the other way)? Yes. Yes. Yes. This is America in 2014. If somebody holds a politically incorrect position, they must be destroyed: their employer must be named, shamed, and pressured to fire that person. If that person runs a co…

You are wrong. There's personal beliefs and then there's giving financial support to crush someone else's. That puts things on a different scale. Abortion in the examples would probably be the closest, but the most 'understandable' part of that is at least it involves termination of life, which is by itself controversial. Prop 8 was about materially preventing families from officially forming. That puts it in a diffe…

> There's personal beliefs and then there's giving financial support to crush someone else's.

So is the alternative to hold a personal belief, and not ever do anything about it? (Not that I support this particular example.)

Sometimes vital personal beliefs are in conflict, and to do nothing could be dangerous.

Freedom of speech vs freedom of religion conflicts, such as are seen in parts of Europe, are a great example: neither side has been able to reconcile without "crushing" part of the other side's view. And yet both views are obviously important, with a lot of validity.

Re: Inclusiveness at Mozilla

#173

Post by thescribe »

biehl wrote: post #99
pavpanchekha wrote: post #59

Wait, wait, hold on. Folks, this man isn't a politician, he isn't a social crusader, he isn't using his position as a platform. At worst, he's rich. He hasn't taken the throne, or even government office; he's the CEO of a private corporation that makes web browsers of all things. Now, sure, he might be against gay marriage. And you might disagree, and have a variety of principles to back your position. But why do we…

The CEO of Mozilla is the leader of a project that draws on goodwill of people for evangelism and support. Furthermore the whole philosophy of Free Software is based on the golden rule and doing social good - that is why there are high demands for the behavior and philosophy of Brendan. And I think his statement is appropriate and encouraging.

You say social good like there is some non-solipsistic way to define morality. I'm almost certain a large majority of the people who donated to support prop-8 considered themselves to be improving society (Even if I and, I suspect, you) disagrees with them.

We're all going to have to learn to get along with people who's very core beliefs we find reprehensible, or this pluralism thing is doomed.

Re: Inclusiveness at Mozilla

#174

Post by thescribe »

lotsofmangos wrote: post #65

If he doesn't fully explain his position on why he donated to that campaign, then he remains hard to trust. He seems to be refusing to state his full position on the reasons behind that donation, other than to ask people to take his word that his reasons are reasonable, while using the fact that people are being rude as a defense not to speak publicly on the subject, which isn't entirely reassuring. https://brendanei…

Given the response here, I think that just makes him a rational human.

Re: Inclusiveness at Mozilla

#175

Post by jedanbik »

MrZongle2 wrote: post #171
jedanbik wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is this unfortunate? I don't understand your perspective.

It is unfortunate because even though Mozilla has nothing specifically to do with LGBT issues and Eich has not publicly opined on the subject in the capacity of a Mozilla employee, he must now apologize for having an opinion. Let me repeat that: Eich is apologizing for his opinion. Not his actions as Mozilla CEO or even as an employee. The response from some quarters to punish his deviation from what some parties hav…

I disagree with your core premise because a political contribution is more than an opinion or a thought. It is an action as well as an endorsement.

Re: Inclusiveness at Mozilla

#176

Post by thescribe »

azinman2 wrote: post #111
MrZongle2 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would we have the same controversy if Brendan voted Tea Party (but only privately)? If he were against abortion? If he didn't believe NASA needed a bigger budget (or that it did, if you lean the other way)? Yes. Yes. Yes. This is America in 2014. If somebody holds a politically incorrect position, they must be destroyed: their employer must be named, shamed, and pressured to fire that person. If that person runs a co…

You are wrong. There's personal beliefs and then there's giving financial support to crush someone else's. That puts things on a different scale. Abortion in the examples would probably be the closest, but the most 'understandable' part of that is at least it involves termination of life, which is by itself controversial. Prop 8 was about materially preventing families from officially forming. That puts it in a diffe…

You know what we call someone who has personal beliefs but doesn't act on them? Hypocritical.

Re: Inclusiveness at Mozilla

#177

Post by lotsofmangos »

thescribe wrote: post #174
lotsofmangos wrote: post #65

If he doesn't fully explain his position on why he donated to that campaign, then he remains hard to trust. He seems to be refusing to state his full position on the reasons behind that donation, other than to ask people to take his word that his reasons are reasonable, while using the fact that people are being rude as a defense not to speak publicly on the subject, which isn't entirely reassuring. https://brendanei…

Given the response here, I think that just makes him a rational human.

That's just the "No explanation is required because some people have been rude." line of argument I was commenting about though. Iterating it doesn't particularly convince me.

Re: Inclusiveness at Mozilla

#178

Post by bane »

gcp wrote: post #110
bane wrote: post #16

"My ongoing commitment to our Community Participation Guidelines, our inclusive health benefits, our anti-discrimination policies, and the spirit that underlies all of these." "...and in the meantime express my sorrow at having caused pain." Ouch, how can somebody hold two opposing thoughts in their head at once? That's basically a denouncement of his own personal efforts. At this point, the best thing he can do to l…

I hope he keeps getting held accountable for participating in the oppression of a minority group until he takes substantive steps to make public amends. Didn't he just do that, by promising contrary action rather than a cheap apology?

"by promising contrary action rather than a cheap apology?"

We'll see. Promises are easily broken, especially when you don't think the subject of the promise is important.

Re: Inclusiveness at Mozilla

#179

Post by baconner »

cturner wrote: post #164
baconner wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vast majority of rights that are bound to marriage in the us have nothing whatsoever to do with "the bedroom" but rather practical matters like visiting your chosen spouse in the hospital or not having your non-citizen spouse deported or receiving benefits if your spouse is killed while serving in the military. Another good example is the right to file taxes jointly which can have a huge impact on your joint inco…

OK, I'm convinced. But don't forget about that deprecation team.

Absolutely - this is why coders need to run for office more.

Re: Inclusiveness at Mozilla

#180

Post by bane »

aestra wrote: post #146
macu wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree in general. So long as humans partake in decision-making, decisions will be made according to the minds involved. I would worry about the possible impact of Brendan's personal beliefs if I thought that he truly has a heartfelt disdain for whole classes of people, but as far as I can tell, he doesn't. The question of whether to support gay marriage doesn't always reduce to bigotry and homophobia. In Brendan's…

>traditional idea of marriage Ok, I have a question. What exactly do these people think a traditional marriage is? Marriage is always and has always evolved with the times, culture, and societal norms and thinking. It wasn't until recently that we even married for love (love marriages) or selected our own spouse. Previously, marriages were more like a business transaction. A transfer of property from father to husban…

To be honest, most social conservatives would be shocked and mortified at a proposal to establish the forms of traditional biblical marriage that are actually in the bible.

But they will defend to the death the need to uphold the pagan Roman tradition.

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