"It’s almost impossible to feel like part of a community if you’re not highly proficient in the language. Even non-native speakers who are fluent enough to read posts in their second or third languages often aren’t comfortable enough to write in them." Wow, this is true! I am brazilian and you have no idea how much effort I put in writing every single comment here on HN. And the longer de comment is, the more stupid…
>edit: I noticed I just wrote "de" instead of "the". Stupidest mistake I often make. Again, just because in my mind they sound exactly the same - and "de" is a word (of) in portuguese. Gosh, I make this mistake for so long, I should have learned already. Thanks for explaining this! I work with a few people in South America and they write "de" all the time in e-mails. I kind of figured that's why it happens.
Why Stack Overflow in Portuguese?
171–180 of 260 posts
Re: Why Stack Overflow in Portuguese?
#172"It’s almost impossible to feel like part of a community if you’re not highly proficient in the language. Even non-native speakers who are fluent enough to read posts in their second or third languages often aren’t comfortable enough to write in them." Wow, this is true! I am brazilian and you have no idea how much effort I put in writing every single comment here on HN. And the longer de comment is, the more stupid…
There is a real brutal grammar nazi trend I've been seeing recently on various sites - apparently, someone gets a buzz of self entitled superiority off of correcting someones grammar mistakes. Personally? I think English is insanely stupid, inefficient, and dumb. I speak it because I have to, not because I want to, because everyone else does it. If you think trying to get breakout success in a market with, say, a sof…
Re: Why Stack Overflow in Portuguese?
#173I think this is not the correct way to tackle the problem. Build a website in Portuguese will only divide instead of stimulate the participation of users which doesn't have English as native. I'd like to propose a different approach: For the users that speak Portuguese natively, make the questions, answers and comments all written in Portuguese FIRST, and, a English version MANDATORY afterwards (which would be the st…
Re: Why Stack Overflow in Portuguese?
#174Earlier quoted context omitted.
Agreed, writing posts/comments in English as a non-native speaker (with anxiety issues) is a real endeavour. Thankfully I've put so much time in it already that I can be reasonably certain that what I write is correct, and "flows" well, but I can definitely relate to your struggles.
Would you mind to share what is your process?
Re: Why Stack Overflow in Portuguese?
#175I think this is not the correct way to tackle the problem. Build a website in Portuguese will only divide instead of stimulate the participation of users which doesn't have English as native. I'd like to propose a different approach: For the users that speak Portuguese natively, make the questions, answers and comments all written in Portuguese FIRST, and, a English version MANDATORY afterwards (which would be the st…
This is an interesting idea, but I wonder about the practicality. When you say something is MANDATORY, whose responsibility is it? The question writer, who may not have English at all? Someone else? Who?
Re: Why Stack Overflow in Portuguese?
#176Programming specific I think is easier in English. I speak 3 languages and understand 4. Talking about programming, computer science and technology in non-Engish is awkward. It either is necessary to just use English terms anyway for every other noun or struggle with awkward translation of them. Things like kernel, doubly linked list, hash table, binary tree, greedy algorithm, they are all invented in English and whe…
I wonder how corporate programmers in non-english speaking countries communicate about programming. I would imagine that they use their local language for docs, commit descriptions, email lists, etc. I think most of the source code people can look at is for open source projects and they always go with english as the default even when there are mostly non-english speaking programmers. But what does it look inside priv…
In this company, at least, you would imagine somewhat inaccurately.
I speak English and three or four words of Mandarin. Their English proficiency ranges from equal to my Mandarin to almost idiomatic American English (a few having spent between a couple years and half or more of their lives working and/or studying in the US).
For live conversations, "English" technical terms are just a given, even for those who I can't even hold an minimal English conversation with. There are "translations" of things like "pointer", "file", "hard drive", etc.. They don't use them. Those most fluent in English engage in more significant code switching, with entire sentences or large sentence fragments in English.
I can sometimes extract significant meaning from conversations that are not otherwise in English because of this. They are frequently surprised by this, because they don't even think about it. These parts of English have simply been incorporated into a sort of programmer's dialect, it is part of their "native" language now.
Those who are most fluent in English, however, have told me they sometimes find it easier to have technical conversations entirely in English. I've heard two different reasons given for this, sometimes by the same person. One is the most obvious: This industry basically originated in English-speaking countries, so it's built on the assumption of English. The second is probably more locale-specific: Mandarin is apparently less precise and/or concise than English. One person described it as more "flowing" or "stream-of-consciousness", another as "based on feeling". Maybe not ideal for a field where precision is critical.
Documentation follows a similar pattern. The more comfortable they are in English, the more likely they are to use English, at least in part, in documentation. Commit messages, interestingly, are much more likely to be in English than Chinese.
Within code, APIs, and file formats, identifiers are almost invariably in English. Sometimes strange English, but English nonetheless. I imagine this would be less the case if we'd had UTF-8 source code 30 years ago, but it's where we are now. Filenames are also usually in English.
Comments are another mixed bag. Some developers whose English is very poor nonetheless comment exclusively in English, others use primarily Chinese. Again, the more fluent are likely to comment entirely in English. (This assumes the existence of comments at all, of course.)
Obviously when they specifically intend for me to read or deal with something, or are modifying code I wrote, everything is in English, but that's a fraction of what goes on in R&D.
Re: Why Stack Overflow in Portuguese?
#177"It’s almost impossible to feel like part of a community if you’re not highly proficient in the language. Even non-native speakers who are fluent enough to read posts in their second or third languages often aren’t comfortable enough to write in them." Wow, this is true! I am brazilian and you have no idea how much effort I put in writing every single comment here on HN. And the longer de comment is, the more stupid…
Why not use http://ell.stackexchange.com/ or http://english.stackexchange.com/ to learn English and maintain the stackoverflow one version? I agree with "soneca", I am from Brazil too and I'm not so confortable to answer in English, but this never stopped me to ask, to answer or whatever... I mean, the real insight is continous learning, we cannot be in the comfort zone. Distribute and divide will result in duplicate…
Re: Why Stack Overflow in Portuguese?
#178> Without Googling, name any famous developer from Japan. Or China. Or Russia. Yukihiro Matsumoto. Rasmus Lerdorf. Guido van Rossum.
Re: Why Stack Overflow in Portuguese?
#179"It’s almost impossible to feel like part of a community if you’re not highly proficient in the language. Even non-native speakers who are fluent enough to read posts in their second or third languages often aren’t comfortable enough to write in them." Wow, this is true! I am brazilian and you have no idea how much effort I put in writing every single comment here on HN. And the longer de comment is, the more stupid…
There is a real brutal grammar nazi trend I've been seeing recently on various sites - apparently, someone gets a buzz of self entitled superiority off of correcting someones grammar mistakes. Personally? I think English is insanely stupid, inefficient, and dumb. I speak it because I have to, not because I want to, because everyone else does it. If you think trying to get breakout success in a market with, say, a sof…
The Korean tried inventing an optimal alphabet a few centuries ago and it caught on. [0] Traditional Korean writing (in Chinese characters) has been almost abandoned.
The Korean Hangul alphabet doesn't include all possible sounds but I don't think that's really what you want. All those guttural consonants, tonal vowels, and clicks and snaps and buzzes that are possible add complexity, but the real breadth of words is mostly combinatorial rather than based on having a lot of letters.
Re: Why Stack Overflow in Portuguese?
#180Earlier quoted context omitted.
>edit: I noticed I just wrote "de" instead of "the". Stupidest mistake I often make. Again, just because in my mind they sound exactly the same - and "de" is a word (of) in portuguese. Gosh, I make this mistake for so long, I should have learned already. Thanks for explaining this! I work with a few people in South America and they write "de" all the time in e-mails. I kind of figured that's why it happens.
Neither portuguese nor (I think) spanish have either of the two 'th' sounds (/ð/ as in 'the', or /θ/ as in 'thing'), and the 'd' (/d/) sound is the closest thing we have in portuguese.