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Linda Liukas' Programming book for Children has Huge First Day on Kickstarter

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Re: Linda Liukas' Programming book for Children has Huge First Day on Kickstarter

#171

Post by Karunamon »

MartinCron wrote: post #168
Karunamon wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about you don't respond to tone or tenor at all? It's a bad argument on the best of days (PG's hierarchy has that near the bottom, one step above straight up ad hominem.) It's a diversion at best . If you feel someone is being unpleasant, deal with it. You needn't be pleasant to be right. If they're being unpleasant and wrong, reply with why they're wrong, or alternatively downvote and move on. No need for meta n…

I respectfully disagree with the idea that we should simply ignore unpleasantness in the community. A healthy ecosystem is determined by a lot more than mere factual correctness.

But it's also determined by a lot more than a veneer of politically-correct pleasantness. I suggest that the best way to deal with such people is use the downvote button. Complaining about tone is just so much noise... it adds nothing to any discussion.

Re: Linda Liukas' Programming book for Children has Huge First Day on Kickstarter

#172

Post by thinkpad20 »

rhizome wrote: post #124
thinkpad20 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The two methodologies aren't mutually exclusive. Maybe when this book comes out your kids will love it, perhaps even have a better appreciation for the concepts because of their experiences. Or, since Ruby is very different than BASIC, it might give them a glimpse into the variety of the world of computer programming.

Does a child receive a bicycle so as to get a glimpse into the variety of the world of human-powered locomotion? Remember, "The Simplest Thing That Could Possibly Work."

I'm not quite sure what point you're making.

Re: Linda Liukas' Programming book for Children has Huge First Day on Kickstarter

#173

Post by markdown »

Shivetya wrote: post #17
thrush wrote: post #15

Recently Chicago announced that they are going to make Computer Science a core subject for students K-12. And now this children's book is announced. It's really an inspirational time for not only diversity, but general exposure of CS to the mainstream. But seriously, what an amazing idea! Good luck with Hello Ruby!

I bought into Robot Turtles and found it to have been fascinating. Yet, I had real difficulty getting my ten year old nephew to even look at it and I wonder about how well a book, cutesy as it is, will fare. For the game, it was "for kids" (he meant his younger sister), it was a BORED game, and did he mention it wasn't for little kids? I am curious as to the format, book or board game, being relevant in this day

Does your nephew spend a lot of time watching tv and playing video/console/tablet/computer games?

Re: Linda Liukas' Programming book for Children has Huge First Day on Kickstarter

#174

Post by throwawaycoder »

run4_too wrote: post #68
throwawaycoder wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because men would never have thought of creating a programming book for kids? http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&page=1&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Aprog... Or maybe because men can't draw as well as women? Edit: probably I'll get downvoted for this so I'll just add that I think it's good this book is being made. Can't hurt to try different things to get kids interested. Just not sure why the gender comment was necessary.

No, because the audience is clearly unsatisfied with only having those options. What a bigoted comment. OP is praising diversity, and you are suggesting what, exactly? That there isn't an issue if everyone in a field approaches a problem in the exact same way? Are you really that small minded?

I did not reply to the "diversity is good" comment, but to the "this is a good example why diversity is good" comment. This seems to imply to me that such a book wouldn't be made by men, which seems rather prejudiced to me. I only object to the implied prejudice.

Your comment also sounds as if you think women would approach the issue in a completely different way than men, so please explain in which way?

Re: Linda Liukas' Programming book for Children has Huge First Day on Kickstarter

#175

Post by throwawaycoder »

deadfall wrote: post #130
throwawaycoder wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because men would never have thought of creating a programming book for kids? http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&page=1&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Aprog... Or maybe because men can't draw as well as women? Edit: probably I'll get downvoted for this so I'll just add that I think it's good this book is being made. Can't hurt to try different things to get kids interested. Just not sure why the gender comment was necessary.

I want to address one of the books in the Amazon link. 3D game programming FOR KIDS looks overwhelming even to me. The kid me would have looked a few pages and fell right asleep. I understand it isn't for the same age range as Linda's book but wow. This is the problem getting kids to stick with it. My manager talks about his kids just not sticking with programming. They go to classes and want to build things, but it…

I only did a search for "programming book for kids" on Amazon. Maybe they all suck, maybe not. Maybe Linda's book will suck, too. I just want to know why a programming book written by a woman is presumed to be superior to programming books written by men. And I have nothing against programming books written by women - my question is why enter the gender angle.

Maybe men would be less likely to use a female protagonist, I haven't sampled the books content. Maybe not. So it's maybe nice to have a programming book with a female protagonist, but I doubt it is something only women would think of.

In fact I suppose if a man who has a daughter were to write such a book, he would be quite likely to make the protagonist female, too.

Btw. the Python books for kids looks as if there are also stories in it, and I saw at least one rave review from an 8 year old: http://www.amazon.com/Python-Kids-Playful-Introduction-Progr...

Maybe Alice in Wonderland would work, too?

Re: Linda Liukas' Programming book for Children has Huge First Day on Kickstarter

#176

Post by throwawaycoder »

supersystem wrote: post #42
throwawaycoder wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because men would never have thought of creating a programming book for kids? http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&page=1&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Aprog... Or maybe because men can't draw as well as women? Edit: probably I'll get downvoted for this so I'll just add that I think it's good this book is being made. Can't hurt to try different things to get kids interested. Just not sure why the gender comment was necessary.

"Just not sure why the gender comment was necessary." I said nothing about gender nor did I intend to, that was your assumption.

What did you mean then, by "this is a good example why" - in what way is it a good example, what does it show about diversity?

Re: Linda Liukas' Programming book for Children has Huge First Day on Kickstarter

#177

Post by throwawaycoder »

jcoder wrote: post #65

What an incredibly important book for little boys, to normalize learning from women early on so they don't grow up to form stereotypes like "programming is for men". Bravo!

Except that most kindergarden nurses and primary school teachers are women, so they already normalize learning from women all the time. Oh, and of course mothers are women, too, and most kids spend more time with their mothers than with their fathers.

(I have nothing against a programming book written by woman - I learned Java from the Java Tutorial and earned lots of money with it - but I ask people to challenge their prejudices).

I even sent the author of the Java Tutorial a fan email once (the original author was a woman, don't know what it's current state is).

Re: Linda Liukas' Programming book for Children has Huge First Day on Kickstarter

#178

Post by jcoder »

ultimatedelman wrote: post #164
Confusion wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note: author is being sincere. It's easy to read the comment as ugly sarcasm, inspired by whatever -ism comes to mind.

that's not how i read it. i read it as a sarcastic comment berating the author for allegedly creating a book that perpetuates gender stereotypes. to be fair, if i re-read it after having had my morning coffee, i can see how, if sincere, it's actually a good comment. if that's the case, i retract my comment.

Absolutely sincere, but pre-coffee as well :)

Re: Linda Liukas' Programming book for Children has Huge First Day on Kickstarter

#179

Post by Crito »

JunkDNA wrote: post #69

This is wonderful. I think some of the commenters here are missing the point by insisting that how they learned to code is how everyone should learn. If we're going to get to a point where coding is a basic type of literacy like math or reading (and I'm not necessarily saying I agree with that goal), then you have to start small when kids are young. Really young kids need some kind of framework. You can't just throw…

My brother use to have a book (well, probably still does somewhere) called The New Way Things Work. It had simple explanations of how tons of different mechanisms work, but it had an entire chapter dedicated to explaining how digital systems could work, using woolly mammoths and various sorts of pie transportation devices. Really brilliant and detailed illustrations throughout.

I have always thought it was a wonderfully delightful way to introduce children to those sort of concepts. It was more EE/CE than coding (and the rest of the book was heavily ME), but I think the approach adapts to coding equally well.

(http://www.amazon.com/The-New-Way-Things-Work/dp/0395938473)

Re: Linda Liukas' Programming book for Children has Huge First Day on Kickstarter

#180

Post by e12e »

davidw wrote: post #162
leoc wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The old Usborne computer programming books got a lot done in about 50 pages. But then they were quite textually dense, and by no means perfect as teaching tools either https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7110676 .

Yeah, 50 pages of text might get you something. 32 pages of mostly drawings gets you... The Gruffalo ( http://www.amazon.com/Gruffalo-Julia-Donaldson/dp/0142403873... ), a popular book for kids that we also own. So there's nothing wrong with the format, but just don't over promise in terms of what it is.

It's 32+16 pages, which totals 48... so if you're happy with 50, it's a bit strange to be upset about 32 pages of story and 16 pages of activities?

edit: It's much shorter than 50 pages full of text -- but I think this project looks great, especially for the target audience. IMNHO there's a pretty thin line between children's books like this, and when those actually interested (and a little older, maybe) can get started with any old programming book (many of the Ruby and Python books should work fine -- if we could learn 68000 asm in a foreign language from a magazine at 12, surely most of the "proper" books should be within reach of a motivated 10 year old?). What's needed is some books and materials to make the field interesting and fun to get into.

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